Ryan Hart on the Evolution of Experience Management

Be Custoemr Led – Ryan Hart on the Evolution of Experience Management

[00:00:00] Welcome to be customer lad, where we’ll explore how leading experts in customer and employee experience are navigating organizations through their own journey to be customer led and the accidents and behaviors of lawyers and businesses exhibit to get there. And now your host of Bill’s staikos.

[00:00:32] Bill Staikos: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to be customer led. This is your host bill steakhouse. I have another amazing guest for you all today. So Hart Ryan, someone I got to know last year, and before he joined the chameleon collective, which we’re going to talk about in just a little bit, he was managing director of PWCs Japan’s Tokyo experience center, part of PWCs, APAC experience consulting leadership team, where he and his team have experienced strategy.

[00:00:58] UX UI designers and creative technologists designed and developed innovative products and services for differentiated product service, experience advantages, Ryan. So great to have you on the show. I learn every time I talk to you, man. So I’m so excited for our listeners to enjoy your time here.

[00:01:16] Ryan Hart: Thank you.

[00:01:16] Thank you very much, bill. Always great to connect with you and great to be back in the states. Now talking with you.

[00:01:21] Bill Staikos: Well, I know, I know last time we talked, you were in APAC and now you’re, uh, you’re back in the states, which is wonderful. So today we’re talking about the evolution of experience management, something.

[00:01:30] You know, clearly, you know, a great deal about, and we can go deep on, you know, before we get there though, just Ryan, can you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey and now you’re in terms CXO and CX practice lead at chameleon collective, so interactive. Excuse me, can you talk to us a little bit about sure.

[00:01:48] Ryan Hart: So I have a very, you know, like a lot of really good customer experience, people that I’ve met throughout my career, I have a really long Securitas route actually to get to where I am. And as opposed to, I remember when I used to work for JP Morgan and I used to look at these guys that were, you know, managing director and they’ve been in the bank for 20 years and I was like, wow, it must be so great to be that senior.

[00:02:08] But now I look at those people and I think that, you know, someone that doesn’t have the. Different industries, different jobs, different geographies. I mean, really difficult to, to have a holistic view of, uh, you know, what customers want and how to apply those kinds of strategies. So just taking a look at understanding the people that have really diverse background.

[00:02:26] So for me, I’ve had a very diverse background. I’ve been in APAC for probably 14 or 15 years. I was in, I started in banking and real estate in Japan and China moved back to Japan to help launch HSBC premiere, which was. You know, quite disruptive for the Japan market. And that was really wealth management space as you know, bill from, from your time with credit Suisse.

[00:02:48] So we, we launched that business there and really what that was kind of my first experience with understanding that you really need to create a differentiated experience. To win customers away from the incumbent domestic banks. And so how was, what was that going to be was what was going to be so that compelling pull to bring customers to us from those.

[00:03:07] And really we identified very smartly that it was experienced that was early 2000 around then that we did that. And so, uh, from that point, I really saw that, you know, creating a differentiated experience for customers was really a way to not only. Just look and feel nice and have people happy. But I mean, really it was, it was driving revenue and it was winning customers.

[00:03:28] And so for me, that was where that was kind of where the light bulb switched on. And ever since then, you know, I’ve been in, in customer strategy and customer experience type roles that have led me, you know, Singapore, you know, I started a company in Chicago. That I got hired by Sapient nitro to go lead their practices in Singapore.

[00:03:48] So, so close that down, but then, you know, here I am back back in the states, so yeah, it’s been great. And I think. Um, you know, for me really the most special time in one, it really accelerated that learning curve was when I was with Forester. So I was with Forrester for about five years, led their customer experience practice in some of the thought leadership in Asia, Pacific based in Singapore.

[00:04:10] And then they moved me back to San Francisco to lead design thinking and some of the innovation work in the CX space and which for me, it was just a really fast and accelerated learning express.

[00:04:24] Bill Staikos: Man you’ve had such an incredible career from a broader, like big C customer experience perspective. So now you’re a chameleon collective.

[00:04:33] So w w tell us a little bit, cause that’s a little bit of a different business model too, right? So tell us a little bit about.

[00:04:38] Ryan Hart: Yeah, no, it’s I thank you for bringing that up. It it’s really interesting because community collective is in so many ways. It’s the future of work, really? So basically we have these people that are, you know, senior partners at these management consulting firms.

[00:04:52] Maybe they were former COO at a, at a large corporate organization or practitioner or in other place. And they’ve just kind of gotten discharged. Disenchanted or kind of disenfranchised with his life at a big corporate organization. So these people, part of the, I don’t know if you call it the great rigs nation or the great realization, but a lot of these people now have realized I just want to do my own besides I want to work closely with my customers.

[00:05:17] So for me, Leaving a large organization like PWC it’s it’s, you know, when you’re a managing director or you’re quite senior in an organization, you spend a lot of your time, you know, doing performance reviews and dealing with internal team mechanics and personal issues. But really you just want to be with closer to the clients.

[00:05:35] You want to be closer to the work. So, so it’s a flat organization. Everyone has their own LLC or their own S Corp. And then we basically, it’s kind of where partnerships maybe started maybe 30 years ago. I mean when they were started, which was everyone had their own book of business and their own clients.

[00:05:50] And then when they needed to deliver work, they actually drew from the skills and experience that these other people had. And so that actually, um, through scale then allows them to go after bigger and more exciting pieces of work and transformation work

[00:06:03] Bill Staikos: really interesting. Well, no doubt there, you know, no doubt your own clients that you’re bringing out for yourself and your business.

[00:06:10] Get a ton of value of that, of your expertise and what you can bring to the table, but clearly you’ve got access to other resources as well, which is pretty awesome.

[00:06:18] Ryan Hart: Um, and I mean you, and when you worked for every company, uh, sorry, if I could just interject, if you work for a really, really big company, obviously you.

[00:06:26] They have a lot of overhead costs. You know, they have a lot of just the cost structure is just so massive that, that, that what you charge clients has maybe three or four times what you would as if you were an independent consultant, for example. So the value that actually clients get now is you have someone who is a C-level executive or has experienced running large businesses or P and L’s, and then actually has them directly working in the.

[00:06:50] Uh, really a third or a fourth of the cost. You know, the salary rate hourly rate of a project costs are a lot less, but all that money then goes to, to the people that are delivering the work.

[00:06:59] Bill Staikos: So I’m actually a big fan. I’ve been having a lot of conversations with friends who have been fractional CMOs or fractional other C level kind of roles.

[00:07:09] I think the fractional CXO is something. Not a lot of people are exploring yet, but I think it’s absolutely going to start up as, and people say, Hey, I may not want to go all in and you know, this way and just go spend a ton of money on a senior leader. I want to go find someone who’s an experience, but can stand up this team, get it started.

[00:07:28] And even coach and nurture someone who we want to bring up from within as well. I think that there’s a really interesting business case and model in there that I think the companies are going to start to explore

[00:07:37] Ryan Hart: more. Absolutely. W do you see any particular industries that that’s happening more, more, so

[00:07:43] Bill Staikos: bill, so it’s, I see that a little bit.

[00:07:46] I see the interest coming from a couple of industries. Actually. I see like the communications industry a little bit, like sort of smaller, like mid market players. Sometimes in the retail space and a couple of other people that I’ve talked to about this have been a little bit more on like the private equity slash VC side.

[00:08:07] Yeah. Right. So not like massive funds, but how do you apply a customer experience strategy or create a customer experience strategy that covers or crosses a portfolio of companies? Right. So we don’t need like a big CXO to run all this, but we need someone who can come in. Call it CX in a box, whatever you want to call it and actually apply it to the portfolio.

[00:08:27] So they can all kind of bring CX into their own companies, apply this model. And then, you know, the goal obviously is had, you know, could that create a higher, multiple, or get quicker to multiple or. So totally.

[00:08:40] Ryan Hart: Yep. I agree. So I guess, you know, I think you look a lot of companies that have done leveraged buyouts, for example, or that are looking, that have taken over companies.

[00:08:49] They want quick, you know, they want a quick path to revenue, right? So a lot of times they think that what they need to do is obviously they need to go in and get some marketing people right away. But honestly, what I think is if you look at some of the more sophisticated organizations, you look at gap, you look at banana Republic, for example, they’ve basically left.

[00:09:08] They removed the CMO, the CMO position, all those people then roll up into a chief customer officer. So I think the really smart, more sophisticated organizations are if you really want a path to revenue, that’s sustainable, not just a quick hit with marketing really is to build in the foundation of what is the customer, what is it that our users really need?

[00:09:26] What do we really want? So the foundation. These are basically the customer experience management maturity, you know, foundation pieces. So basically putting those in and then saying, okay, going forward, what’s the sustainable path for us to generate revenue out of our customers. It’s to align closely with their expectations and basically, really, you know, build our practices around that that includes marketing, but that also includes design that includes, you know, enabling your workforce to deliver on your CX vision.

[00:09:53] That also includes. You know, you know, being able to prioritize and, and create the right strategy that, you know, that maximizes the impact. So a lot of really interesting work out there. And, uh, yeah, I hope that more companies see that CA the chief customer officer is actually probably a better value than just going after marketing folks.

[00:10:12] Bill Staikos: Yeah, for sure. I mean like Walmart, I mean, big companies, right? Walmart McDonald’s recently had their CXO or they created it and now their marketing organization transformation, all these Wells. When you think about. Ryan’s kind of given your experience and you’ve seen so many teams, so many different leaders, what type of leader do you feel typically has the most success?

[00:10:32] Like what’s the makeup of that individual? Cause that’s a really, it’s a really tough role one, but it’s also tough in the perspective of not just sort of leading so much transformation organization, but influencing multiple C-level executives, et cetera. So like, When you see success in your past lives, what have you seen?

[00:10:52] Like what, what does that leader typically?

[00:10:56] Ryan Hart: So I think you basically nailed a bill when you said that. I mean the influence piece for me being a great influencer is so critical. I think to actually getting work done more so than if you’re really smart someone who’s a great execution, or maybe they can execute work and they can get a lot of work done, but to be able to influence other parts of the business, I think is it cannot be understated.

[00:11:19] That is so important and something that I learned actually working with your former. Uh, credit Swiss actually is that, you know, you can have different groups that, you know, let’s say, you know, high net worth individuals, for example, these people are very protective of their clients. And they’re obviously trying to do work with them.

[00:11:38] Maybe even though they’re high value to the organization, making sure they have great experience has, you know, obviously it will have a good impact on the business, but what I see. Actually sometimes people that are maybe not so protective, but a little bit more willing to work and make changes. Maybe it might be the second, most important area of the business or a third, maybe not the core area, start there and then start building, building that influence across the organization.

[00:12:02] You’ll have people that are more resistant to a customer experience, transformation, maybe start working, you know, working with you and filing them behind you. Once they see that there is value in doing that. So I think influences. I think smart is it’s important to be smart. It’s important to be personable, but I think to be a good influencer is such a critical skill.

[00:12:23] Bill Staikos: Yeah, for sure. For sure. That is number one for me. Yeah. When you look at this kind of leadership and the type of person you and you’re right, you can get things done all day long. And sometimes people are promoted into these roles because they’re great on the execution side, but then sometimes they fall short because great execution in your kind of silo.

[00:12:41] But then when you start working across, you may not have that skillset, which really can kind of break things down. When you think Ryan around experience management. And the core tenants. What do you think some of those core tenants are? And do you see them, or have you seen them different by is, or do you see differences in like digital versus non-digital or by vertical?

[00:13:02] You know, what do you think those are and what kind of works cross? Right.

[00:13:06] Ryan Hart: So. Again, if I can kind of tip my hat again to Forrester, I think that they came up with a really good structure for what they think are they say, are the competencies or really the capabilities that, that these organizations that every organization needs to have.

[00:13:20] I think the really great thing about customer experience is that it cuts across all industries. It cuts across all channels too. So, I mean, really you have to research and understand the needs of your customers. So research is a key. You have to understand what are your priorities, what it’s going to be, the drive, the maximum value for your customers and for your business.

[00:13:40] So that’s really prior to prioritization and strategy, you need to then be able to design your experiences that align with your customers. Your expectations. So, you know, having a really good design capability, whether you’re an airline or your bank or a telco, whether it’s digital, whether it’s physical, it’s still that’s so, so critical that you’re actually proactively designing the right experience based on those, on those research insights, then basically you have to be able then to enable.

[00:14:08] Your people, you’re obviously you have to speak to employee experience. You need to be able to enable them and empower them with the right tools and service blueprint, and kind of, you know, how are we going to deliver on this customer experience vision? So really enablement is so good. Then, you know, all the big bosses and people are going to come in and ask, like, what have you been doing?

[00:14:28] So you gotta be able to measure that, think, measure it. Mint is such a critical, and I think we’ve talked a little bit about journey analytics, you and I, but you know, obviously being able to manage, to measure and show the return on investment for, for your efforts. And then the last one is culture and having the right culture and having the right people that, you know, building that those are really the key tenants that I’ve see.

[00:14:50] Companies that are really successful at customer experience. Do all of those well or most of those? Well,

[00:14:55] Bill Staikos: why do you think, I mean, that’s four or five, let’s say five things or so why do you think, or where maybe even as a better question. Because it’s hard. This is hard work, right? Like one, the company has to have the stomach for it too.

[00:15:10] Everyone’s gotta be bought in three. It takes a lot of money to do this really well. Not just saying, Hey, we’re investing in tech and a technology stack to support us, but also, you know, thinking about all the changes to an organization that you need to potentially make as well. Now there’s real investment dollars that are associated with.

[00:15:29] Why do you think people fail or maybe in those kinds of, in those forests or kind of pillars, where do you think people fail the most? Or maybe don’t put as much emphasis on?

[00:15:39] Ryan Hart: Well, I think one is sometimes you have certain, uh, probably, you know, you’ve seen this in your career bill, but you have certain executives that are more comfortable with certain areas of the business than others.

[00:15:51] And so sometimes they think, oh, well, you know, we really need to design. So we focus all on design and. Uh, unfortunately that neglect other areas that they also need to focus on in a way you need to kind of build all of those competencies together so that they’re all kind of orchestrated and working together.

[00:16:06] But I think really where people fail and I, it’s almost cliche to sound this cause I mean, everyone talks about it, but really. Being able to speak the language of the people with money and being able to financially show what is the ROI of whatever project you’re doing, whether it’s the entire customer experience transformation showing the ROI or whether it’s basically, you know, what is the ROI.

[00:16:27] If we were to go out and. Panel all of our stores read, what’s going to be, how is that going to impact customer experience? Yeah, we, we see anecdotally that customers would like that, but how is that actually going to translate into more sales? And so being able to connect those dots between the money story and actually the customer insight story is the challenge that, you know, frankly, a lot of customer experience professionals just are not prepared to have because you know, a lot of us aren’t coming from financial backgrounds.

[00:16:55] Right?

[00:16:56] Bill Staikos: Yeah. I remember in a past. When I joined a company, I won’t mention the name, but when I got there, they’re like, oh, you’re going to help us do better surveys and listen to our clients. And I was like, sure, that’s part of the role. Maybe they’re like, well then, well, what, what do you think your role is?

[00:17:14] I was like, I’ve got three main objectives. When it increase the revenue, this company, I’m going to reduce costs and improve the culture. And those are measures that we’re gonna. And they’re like, that’s cool. Right? Like, and they’re like, well, customer satisfaction is on our scorecard. I’m like, great. That’s fantastic.

[00:17:31] Keep it there. I’m not telling you to take it off, but you’ve got efficiency measures. You’ve got revenue targets. Those are the ones that we’re going to connect you and drive. And I think you’re right. A hundred percent that so many times we get caught up in having a great NPS program and getting the metric up and like, you know, understanding what the drivers of NPS or customer sat or effort are.

[00:17:51] We get lost in that a lot as leaders and professionals sometimes. And we forget that at the end of the day, we are here to drive the business doing in a way that customers is good for customers, but you got to find that balance. And that’s really tough to do.

[00:18:06] Ryan Hart: That’s a really good point. And I think what I see is oftentimes that people get so obsessed with measuring.

[00:18:13] Around MPS in these numbers that they will do anything to manufacture outcomes, that they actually will serve their purpose. Right. And I mean, I used to travel to Australia a lot for work when I was in, based in Singapore and I would go there and I, every time I went down there, I would have more and more people that I would meet more.

[00:18:29] This is in the time of business card. So everyone had business cards and they, then everyone would give business cards. Oh, you’re now head of customer experience. Oh, now you’re chief customer officer. Oh no, you’re not. And it’s just more and more cars. But actually I saw that, you know, you look at across Australia at the time, the customer experience benchmarks were not going up actually saying they were stagnant for, you know, five years.

[00:18:53] And we saw that, that the economy was actually in those sectors, that there were more customer experience. It was actually going down. It was actually decreasing. So it’s like, what are they doing then? They’re their ambiguous costs are going up, but it’s actually not actually creating any material, material uplift in, in the

[00:19:09] Bill Staikos: business.

[00:19:10] What was, um, did you ever come to, like, what was your perspective on that? Like why do you think that? Cause I mean, Forrester, right? All these forms, like they’ve created all this research and said like, all these scores are kind of petering out, right? The trees don’t go to the sky. Right. Eventually like. It gets harder and harder.

[00:19:26] I mean, going from 90 to 95 is a 50% increase because you’ve only got 10 points ago. Right. Versus coming from like 80 to 85. Right. Cause you’ve got 20 points in between 80 and a hundred, but why do you think that that was happening? We’re hiring more CX leaders, but the numbers aren’t really moving, what are we doing wrong?

[00:19:45] Ryan Hart: So I think, I mean, it’s a broad brush. It’s kind of a broad brush problem because I mean, basically you were saying, okay, we want to increase our MPS score across our entire. Customer, you know, cohort or, or population. But the problem is, is you see that, you know, at the end of the day, not all customers are equal, right?

[00:20:02] You have some that are obviously high value customers that are spending a lot of money with you and engaging with you and things like that. But then you have a lot of these detractors who make. You know, spending, I mean, let me give you a real example. So when I was at HSBC, what I realized is we had actually, uh, we were looking at, we were burning our, are we, you know, everyone was like, we were tired.

[00:20:22] We were trying to service all of these different complaints from customers, do all of these different things. And we were just like spinning our wheels. We analyze the data. And what we found was actually that the customers that were actually causing most of the complaints had like the lowest balances in their account.

[00:20:39] And so what I realized is, so when I say that I’m talking about, you know, these are high net worth individuals, so it’s assets under management. So the AUM. Of those people were, were actually the lowest, but then the people with the highest AUM or, you know, borderline private banking customers, they were quiet.

[00:20:56] And so either they were suffering in silence or they just didn’t, weren’t even making complaints. So what I realized is what are we doing? You know, falling and tripping over ourselves, servicing every little request and need that these low, these low value customers are doing at the expense of neglecting our high value customers.

[00:21:14] So I think segmenting your customers and understanding where, who is actually driving the most value for the company and really focusing first on them as a prior. And then working your way back. I mean, obviously you don’t want to ignore your other customers, but at the same time, why should you put three people to resolve on a project, some customer, client complaint issue, you know, for someone, when you have a lot of other things that you could be doing for your higher value customers.

[00:21:37] I think for me, that’s a gap or an issue that needs to be resolved. Yeah.

[00:21:41] Bill Staikos: It talks back to your prioritization, right? As one of those pillars, Hey, I really, I think about the future of lot, and I think about the future of our discipline and. You know, decades ago when you and I got in, got into this game, it wasn’t what it is today.

[00:21:56] Obviously. How do you see experience management? Like what are your thoughts on what this might look like five or even 10 years down the road? If you want to go down that

[00:22:06] Ryan Hart: far. Sure. Well, I think it’s really encouraging to see the trend that we talked about when you talked about McDonald’s and Walmart and these type of companies.

[00:22:14] I feel like the most sophisticated companies that are doing really well in this space have recognized this, the importance of customer experience, call it what you want. I mean, maybe, you know, once the new shiny thing, but really it’s about aligning your products and services to the needs of the people that you’re selling products and services to.

[00:22:31] So if you actually. If you look at companies that are doing that and are doing that well, you have someone that you have customer experience leader. That’s anchored right underneath the CEO. That’s a CX, you know, maybe that’s a chief customer officer, chief experience officer, and then they’re actually aligning all of their efforts around the needs of the customer.

[00:22:51] So that’s why I love the name of their podcast. You know, be customer led because that’s at the end of the day, that’s really what it all boils down to. Do I think customer experience is going to go away or change in a, in a material way? I don’t think so. I mean, maybe some of the nomenclature in, in some of the practices may change a little bit, but, you know, I don’t think you’re really going to get away from having to, to be able to do journey mapping, you know, maybe it’s analog or maybe it’s digital, but I mean, starting very basically with understanding what is the journey that the customer has with us?

[00:23:21] What are the pain points? How are we going to actually add more value than we currently do? And I think hopefully. My hope and being, I guess, maybe overly positive. It’s just that, there’s this realization that the more that we focus on this, the more that there’s actually, we’re going to unlock value for not only the company, but also users, partners, patients, you know, customers.

[00:23:44] Bill Staikos: Yeah, for sure. I think that you’re a hundred percent spot on there. There’s a lot in terms of. Those core fundamental capabilities of the work that we do every day, those may evolve in some way, shape or form, but those are just staples and what, and, and th and the toolkit. Right. And we’re going to use those all the time to understand, I mean, look given kind of my seat at Medallia, can’t get too far into it.

[00:24:05] Right. But there’s a lot of, I’m really excited for the technology that is become available. Two teams over, like, let’s say the last five years, I mean, 20 year old company, obviously, but for me, like when you think about sort of the analytical capability. I mean, so much of this role has become very data heavy over the last couple of years.

[00:24:26] For sure. When you look at things like journey analytics, journey orchestration, real-time just interaction management and like being able to create the next best journey as, as a consumer, I’m going through it. That is pretty cool stuff. That is really cool stuff. I’m really excited.

[00:24:44] Ryan Hart: I think, you know, data new and I a little bit, I mean, when they didn’t have any data.

[00:24:48] So I mean, data was like paper surveys or something. But I mean, now that, that obviously gets a lot more smart about how to extract the right data and how to actually do things with it. I mean, cause that’s, I think that’s for awhile, it was okay. We have a lot of data. We, we understand we have a lot of data, but now how do we actually action it?

[00:25:06] How do we actually segment the right data? And actually, how do we create. Overlay or map that to interactions in the experience where that actually gives us insights that we can actually action on. And so I think that for me is it’s still a TBD to be determined or to, to be developed, I guess, but I totally agree with you with bill that’s it opens up a whole world of really interesting possibilities, I think.

[00:25:30] Bill Staikos: Yeah. And I think just, you know, Back to your point is organizations are bringing together these disparate function, what not disparate, but like marketing CX, et cetera. Right. That’s going to have, and then you kind of put in this sort of tech stack on top of that combination, I think it would be pretty powerful.

[00:25:45] I am, I’m really hopeful. I’m pretty positive about sort of the future and direction of, of the discipline, but, uh, you’re right. We got to understand what the ROI is. We’ve got to make sure that we’re prioritizing the way those core core tenants are. I’ve got two last questions for you. And I’ve actually been dying to ask you these two questions, by the way, all week, you have no idea who are the leaders you admire most in this space.

[00:26:08] Ryan Hart: So, this is where I say bill stakeholders.

[00:26:10] Bill Staikos: Now you can add that definitely by the way. That’s not true, by the way, you can just

[00:26:16] Ryan Hart: Venmo me the money later. No, I think I owe something to Harley Manning because Harley Manning, you know, know. And a lot of people’s eyes, you know, the godfather of a lot of customer experience and formalization of customer experience, he wrote, you know, the inside out and, you know, are outside in, sorry, outside in and, and you know, that kind of at least put a stake in the ground around customer experience.

[00:26:38] So I learned a lot from him. He was. Oh, well, I was at Forrester for, for a long time. And so I learned some of the core fundamentals from them, but I think moving into the space, I mean, uh, Matt Watkinson, who I think, you know, as well, who is an author, I, I actually remembered visiting him, him in a little shack in California once.

[00:26:55] Yeah. You know, he was just this brilliant guy or, you know, working along on his computer, working on his books is right before he wrote through the grid. And so, you know, he just said the ideas and the ability to articulate so clearly and so well about, you know, some of the issues in customer, spirit and space for me has always been really impressive.

[00:27:16] And so, um, I think he’s something that I certainly look up to and I certainly follow his and you’ll read his books and follow his, his. And then I, I think, you know, if I can be a little bit more noble, I think that also, you know, all the people that are in marketing that have a sincere interest in understanding customer experience and have realized that, Hey, you know, the days of just marketing to customers has changed.

[00:27:39] And so we have to be a little bit more. Uh, studied or at least, uh, up-to-date on what happens actually, once we created the brand, well, then the brand needs to come to life in form of experiences. And so what does that look like? And so marketers that are making efforts to understand that side of it. I think I also have a lot of respect for

[00:27:55] Bill Staikos: cool.

[00:27:56] Yeah. I know we were lucky to enough to have Matt on this show. Not too long ago, the grid was one of, uh, there’s a couple of books that, but th that I really kind of keep on going back to the grid is one that. Changed my perspective on the work that we do every day. And he’s got a new one coming out this year.

[00:28:14] So I’m so excited to see what comes out, Ryan, where do you go for inspiration?

[00:28:20] Ryan Hart: So I think bill, you’re also a cyclist. So I think maybe you can agree that. I mean, it’s great to just get out and go for a long ride and then just really clear ahead. So I don’t know if that’s inspiration, but for me it’s just a really great time to just think.

[00:28:32] And actually sometimes when I’m, you know, out in the middle of nowhere and I’m just slogging along and maybe I’m suffering, trying to move to Colorado now, so there’s a lot more Hills, there’s a lot more Hills here than Tokyo, but sometimes when I’m really in pain cave, I guess I’ll be, you know, it gives me some.

[00:28:48] Fresh insight and some endorphins to think about new things. So I think that’s really good. And you know, both of my girls are our big climbers and stuff, and I used to be a professional climbers actually go, you know, take them climbing and stuff like that a lot. So I think they really love that.

[00:29:04] Bill Staikos: That’s awesome.

[00:29:05] That’s awesome. I love that. Yeah, no, I get a lot of inspiration from being on a bus. Just in the zone and you do, I mean, when those endorphins go on, like the idea just starts coming fast and furious. All right, Ryan, you’re running your own kind of shop you’re at chameleon collective. Where can people find you if they want to reach out, learn more and potentially.

[00:29:24] Ryan Hart: Yeah. So thank you bill. So, uh, they’re doing a campaign on Valentine’s day. So February 14th, chameleon’s going to be doing social media posts across all the different channels. For me, that’s linked LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram. I think there’s going to be also stuff on their website. Obviously you can fight me on LinkedIn Ryan Hart.

[00:29:43] And based in Colorado now. So yeah, happy to have conversations with people. I’m an interim leader, so always happy to help to step in and help execute work. And that’s how we’re positioning ourselves as an extension or a team that executes the work, not just talks about frameworks all day.

[00:29:59] Bill Staikos: It’s awesome, Ryan, so good to see you again.

[00:30:01] Thanks so much for coming on.

[00:30:02] Ryan Hart: No. Thank you. Thank you so much, bill. It’s great to see you again as well.

[00:30:06] Bill Staikos: Absolutely, absolutely man. Great to see you. All right, everybody. Another great show this week, we’re out. Talk to you

[00:30:11] Ryan Hart: sooner. The hurdle is the need to be customer led with bill staikos. We are grateful to our audience for.

[00:30:19] To their time, be sure to visit us@becustomerled.com for more episodes. Leave us feedback on how we’re doing or tell us what you want to hear more about until next time we’re out.