Millie Gillon, Sr MD & Head of CX, Innovation & Transformation at Standard Chartered Bank talks about the Five Voices of CX framework

Millie Gillon

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[00:00:00] Bill Staikos: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Be Customer Led. Now another great show for you. I have a really interesting and amazing. All the way from Singapore, Millie Gillon is global head of customer experience innovation and transformation at standard charter bank. [00:00:15] So not only does Millie bring together a lot of cool different roles, but she’s got a great story and I can’t wait for you guys to hear it.

So Millie, welcome to the show. It’s so great to have you here.

[00:00:24] Millie Gillon: Thank you so much. I’m really excited about. Oh

[00:00:28] Bill Staikos: my gosh. Ah, no, no one [00:00:30] more than me for sure. I asked, I started off every show, Millie and ask guests to talk a little bit about their journey, how they got to where they are today, you and I share.

A long history in banking and finance and just, we both love the space, which is creepy and [00:00:45] weird for some people maybe to hear that. But it really is actually a really interesting space, but, when did you get that customer bug and what kind of how did you get into the role that you’re in today?

[00:00:52] Millie Gillon: Sure. So first off I was born and raised in New York city and I grew up in financial services through a scholarship [00:01:00] program that. And that’s where I had this really great opportunity to learn about all of the consumer bank. And most of, if not, all of the investment things specifically around fixed income derivatives.

And then I moved over to Goldman Morgan [00:01:15] Stanley, but then I was really lucky and moved over to American Express. And that’s when my worlds changed when I really became extremely passionate about the individual customer. So I learned extensively at the ins and outs of the [00:01:30] payment industry and I can’t credit the American express enough for that.

I also learned how to be so strategic and thoughtful, especially from the customer’s perspective. But really. The main reason why I stayed in financial services for so long. First of all, [00:01:45] I never 3m. Working in the corporate world. I always dreamed that I would grow up and become a teacher and I accidentally fell into banking and I accidentally stayed in banking, or I guess I didn’t really have a choice, but a child [00:02:00] that basically my last year of the scholarship program, my senior year of college, I worked on the municipal fixed income trading desk.

And before that, all I thought financial services is really about making wealthy to [00:02:15] people. But that’s when my eyes completely opened up. And what municipal issue, what does that mean? It means, for example, I would help to raise funds from individual investors to go and help keep [00:02:30] hospitals open, keep schools, open, fixed roads, or for those who are aware in New York city, the MTA, the subway system and the public transport system, helping them to raise enough funds.

So they wouldn’t go bankrupt themselves. And that’s when I realized that’s when my eyes opened up and [00:02:45] realized that well, financial services has the power and the ability to go and make an impact on individual’s lives. And now whenever I meet anyone who’s new to financial services, I explained to them, do you realize how much power you have?

It doesn’t [00:03:00] matter how high or how low you are in the hierarchy. Each individual has so much power just in their hands to go and make a difference. And really help individuals lift them up a positive difference today, lift them up [00:03:15] from their situation, whether they realize it or not, or realize that or not.

Whatever it is that we do as individuals in financial services, we have that big power and we owe it to the world to not take that lightly, not misuse that. And that’s really what [00:03:30] has been driving me to stay so long in financial services because of. Hope in every, at the beginning of every chapter, I hope that I can make a difference and this thrill that I get when I can see, wow, this can actually help people.

[00:03:44] Bill Staikos: Yeah. So [00:03:45] that totally resonates with me, by the way. I remember being at credit Suisse and, heading up customer experience for the private bank and just really seeing firsthand. Help, helping people build wealth from literally nothing, right? From here’s my [00:04:00] first, a hundred Swiss francs invested or a hundred dollars invested to, all the way, we had folks who literally years and years ago started with a hundred dollars and ended up being high net worth investors, because they were smart.

They saved all the lessons you learn in finance. It was [00:04:15] almost like general wealth, general generation kind of changing, wealth in some level. So I totally hear you that fills my cup up to, and I love financial services from the perspective of just the broad spectrum of customers that you see as well.

And the ability to [00:04:30] transform their lives because, let’s face it like just being, creating financial health for individuals and families is transformational in so many ways. Love that perspective. Y you just filled my cup up just by even talking about that. And for listeners, right?

Like I’m not sure we [00:04:45] cross paths at JP Morgan at Amex, but we just have that history as well. When we first met, obviously we laughed about that too. It’s just like, how did we not bump into each other at two 70 broad or something? I love that story though. One of the most important things any customer experience function is [00:05:00] connecting metrics and customer metrics and business metrics.

And I know that’s something that you guys think about, in your organization, how are you leading your team toward doing that? What. This is not easy to do in any way, obviously, but you know it, do you guys ever pro [00:05:15] and not, and don’t share sort of the secret sauce obviously, or go down a path where standard charter might be upset with you, but how do you think about that?

Just customer metrics and business metrics and tying them up. Why is that important?[00:05:30]

[00:05:30] Millie Gillon: Return on experience. I really think that is the future for most established businesses, as opposed to really focusing on either on NPS or city staff. And what that means is essentially taking what is most important from the [00:05:45] customer perspective and then experience aspect, and then marrying that with the business metrics.

If I invest in these top five things that are most important from a customer experience, Then it means it’s going to [00:06:00] cost me X. And then that means it’s going to bring me exponentially more revenue in these different ways or in this volume or in this matter. And marrying those two pieces together really will help to not just future-proof and organization, [00:06:15] but really help them to move from being very reactive.

And microcosmic to being very proactive.

[00:06:21] Bill Staikos: And do you have a favorite CX metric? There’s so many different. Everyone always asked me what do you like to use NPS C-SAT effort? Do you have a favorite metric [00:06:30] that you’ve gravitated towards over the years and what advice do you have maybe around choosing one over the other.

I think

[00:06:37] Millie Gillon: we could go on and on about how much I just taste MPS, but that wasn’t quite

[00:06:42] Bill Staikos: your no, I’m curious now I’m curious. Now [00:06:45] you got to tell me why you don’t like it. I’m just curious.

[00:06:47] Millie Gillon: It’s because it’s very. Dependent on people who respond is permanent, emotional, extreme, emotional perspective.

So it’s either I’m extremely upset over something or I’m [00:07:00] extremely delighted or something, but nothing in the middle and nothing that is less emotional and more logical based type of reaction or logic around that. And then it is also very reactive. And it’s very tunnel [00:07:15] vision in a sense of this particular piece that I can see that is the reason why I’m upset or I’m so happy, as opposed to some of the things that are more passive or more in the background.

That could be the reason that it’s driving my happiness or my [00:07:30] dissatisfaction, and really it upsets me that all, if all we do is look at the history of. How are we ever going to future proof our business? Because something that might’ve been really upsetting or important for our customer yesterday or last year or a [00:07:45] decade ago, we’re still measuring that.

What’s your, we are still trying to fix that. Like that may not be anywhere near what is most important to a customer, especially taking into account the macro environmental changes such as.

[00:07:59] Bill Staikos: Oh, that [00:08:00] little thing that’s just been, that’s still going on for everybody. So if so, so that’s an interesting point.

So I, I’m a fan of it in some cases and not a fan of it. In other cases, I just will refuse to do it in particular, if it’s more of a commercial context. And in other cases, [00:08:15] I feel like the metric doesn’t matter, actually, it’s what you do with the information and the insights that you get, like who cares, what the measure, like what the metric is thinking about that, That backward looking in the rear view, mirror looking thing, like how do you think about it then from a forward-looking perspective, have you [00:08:30] found a metric or do you like to use one?

Whether it’s a customer metric or other business metric, maybe.

[00:08:36] Millie Gillon: Yes. Actually something that we’re looking at right now and we’re still toying with. So we haven’t quite perfected. It is five voices or this experience [00:08:45] management system that we’re trying to continue to evolve and develop, but we started to do.

And as high voices eventually lead into RLX and essentially what it is this predictive analytics model five voices. Was it a [00:09:00] customer vested employee, nothing new there, but the next three are the ones that I don’t think are as popular, but should be one is the voice of the partner voice or the benchmark and voice of the future.

So voice of the partner had really. The [00:09:15] future of banking, as well as any industry that is very well-established and any company that has really large or established a tough future for them is in platforms and ecosystems. And it is really easy today as a large [00:09:30] bank, any large bank, not just mine to easily say I can cherry pick and choose which partners I want to go and partner with.

But I think that it’s really. This realization that much sooner than we expect those tides full [00:09:45] shift, 180 degrees, and these unicorns can pick and choose a diamond testing from all of these different bets. So what is it that we can do to make ourselves most apparent? Why is it difficult to work?

Easy to partner with us? [00:10:00] Not just from a process or a system perspective, but oh, More comprehensive. And then the next piece is what set the benchmark. So I will never say that my competitors are any of the large banks out there, like Citi or HSBC. [00:10:15] Instead, my competitors are starting. Disney live a time Emirates from an experience perspective.

And those specifically they have come up over and over again. And a lot of our research on who are the best in class [00:10:30] brands out there, it’s important to understand why, what makes them best in class, but most importantly, what keeps them best in class. So the last place is, was at the future everywhere around us.

There are signals and some of those signals [00:10:45] are louder than others. And when they become loud enough, if it comes from. And those trends turn into painting a very bold picture of the future. Five years out, 10 years out, maybe 20 years out. I say burry, because again, we can’t predict the next pandemic [00:11:00] or the next bubble burst, but essentially it is to help us to realize these trends.

We need to start paying attention to them, understanding what they are, and then figure out how do we incorporate it into our associates today. So that when [00:11:15] they become mainstream, we’re not surprised oh my goodness, this team, what is this? How do I react? What do I do with it? Because at that point it will be way too late.

[00:11:22] Bill Staikos: So you’re are you doing all of those voices and capturing all that in a quantitative way from customers and then bringing that back, [00:11:30] those sort of five voices into a quantitative score, and that’s how you guys are measuring

[00:11:33] Millie Gillon: performance.

And then what we do is yes, we do measure performance, but then we also take those qualitative pieces and we incorporate them [00:11:45] into specific solutions, specific customer journeys and really trying to figure out how do we start to embed it now, or at least just think about it, even if it’s not, even if we need to have those discussions internally with our compliance or.

Or even externally with our [00:12:00] regulators, at least we have a position of where we might want to stand and that as a starting point. And then from there we can go and have. Very important conversation so that we don’t put the company.

[00:12:13] Bill Staikos: So while you guys are doing [00:12:15] some pretty cutting edge stuff where you are, that’s really exciting to hear.

It puts you certainly in the upper echelons of teams in the type of work that you guys are doing. Thank you for sharing that. I’m sure our listeners are gonna love that framework. They heard it here first that’s awesome to hear, one of, in thinking about.

Metrics, measurement, [00:12:30] getting a business to adapt and evolve, that can often be like a huge change management exercise right in and of itself. I don’t know if you have people focus on change management specifically or even from your seat, how do you drive and change or influence even other senior [00:12:45] leaders or the C-suite for that matter?

At stand chart,

[00:12:48] Millie Gillon: someone actually asked me last week, are you a change agent? Are you an evangelist of design thinking? I didn’t do it on purpose. I just accidentally fell into the pit. It’s [00:13:00] not by twice, but it’s more, so anything that’s new or anything that is different that I have conviction in. And I truly believe in this is good for the business.

Good for the consumers. I ended up having to go and influence and persuade [00:13:15] people. And how I do that is two ways. One is explain what is it? And then to tell a story. So I’ll give an example many years ago, when I worked at Prudential, I was trying to [00:13:30] explain what is the importance of incorporating design thinking and putting the customer in a sense we’re designing around that customer, as opposed to putting the business in the sense we’re designing around the business fleet and from a logical perspective, the senior leaders [00:13:45] totally got it.

And those who were the. They were still not quite bought into that. So I said, okay, what if I said to you, I want you to build me a car and spend the next 18 months trying to build out that [00:14:00] car, asking me questions. What color, how many doors does it have a spoiler? What are the Rams, et cetera. And then at the end of the 18 months, he delivered his car and I say, thank you.

And I let it sit there and play. And they’re just redness or filters. Like, [00:14:15] why are you not using it? What did I do wrong? I did all I put in all of the specs that you said that you wanted. And then I started on what if, instead of you asking me what color and all of the other specs, what if I said, I want you to build me a car?

And he said to me [00:14:30] why? And I said, oh, I just want to go five blocks away so I could get to the train and go home. And. They could have just said, okay, I’ll buy you a pair of shoes or I will get you a bicycle or your car. I will get you a horse to take you five [00:14:45] blocks. So I think just with that story, and then I myself was a complete mind shift.

I literally stopped people’s light bulbs, light up their eyes just lit up and they totally. So telling these types of [00:15:00] stories and explaining to them the differences between what do we do today and what could be tomorrow really helps quite a bit, but then also not just talking the talk, but walking that talk too.

So getting that one [00:15:15] opportunity and being able to do really well in that and prove yourself, and then show that impact. That is the most. Most impactful way to help to transform an organization or persuade, [00:15:30] influence

[00:15:30] Bill Staikos: others. So I love that story. I It really does. That’s very in particular. And I hope you don’t mind.

I might steal that someday if that’s okay with you. But it really does bring a lot of the elements around human centered design the approach and the style of the thinking in a very real intangible [00:15:45] way that anybody can understand. So really great example and love that story. I think I want to use that actually this coming week with a conversation I’m supposed to have that’s okay.

Oh no. I’m not going to buy you a horse, although maybe you want one. I don’t know. But those are really expensive. Even more expensive than cars, [00:16:00] right over the longterm. Like you might as well just go buy yourself a Ferrari at this point. No. Look, I’m not making Joe Rogan money doing the podcast, so it’s not.

Any other time really I’d be happy to do it. I’m really so Zola I one topic, and we’ve talked about this a little bit, [00:16:15] like one topic that I’m really passionate about is, what, diff a couple of things. One is. As a leader and as a female in this space. And I think just customer experience broadly does have a little bit of a diversity issue.

And you’re Asian-American you were born in the states, [00:16:30] but does have a diversity issue, generally though, if we can just start at the high at a high level and you’re heading up CX for a very large global bank and organization and transformation and et cetera.

What are like some of the differences, maybe you [00:16:45] and skills you maybe had at Amex versus now today and maybe a different seat?

[00:16:51] Millie Gillon: I have more patients today. I’m forced to have my patients today. But in all seriousness at Amex, I really was able to grow my strategic plan. [00:17:00] And most importantly networking, and building rapport.

And it’s not necessarily about here who here’s, who I am now, what can you give me? But more so around having this interest in other people, what you can bring [00:17:15] to the table and letting them get to know you, but having this interest at the end of the day, a genuine interest in other people connecting those dots.

And that has helped me quite a bit ever since my Amex days, but today. I think it’s more so around patients, [00:17:30] I didn’t realize that the gender dynamics in the U S it’s not that bad until I left. I was always very frustrated. And now I look back at my mom, I guess that was nothing as a walk in the park compared to the rest of the world.

[00:17:45] So patients is

[00:17:46] Bill Staikos: very important and in connect. And so in that patients, from the perspective of. Is it the gender component and the lack of maybe diversity in how far other countries are in that, or is there [00:18:00] maybe just because of just the more, in some many cases, you’re in super, that’s a really diverse country and city for that matter.

Yeah. Some of that even driven by that generally too. So

[00:18:10] Millie Gillon: it is a very diverse country and city state. But I, since I’m in a global role, I [00:18:15] have this opportunity to interact globally. So all around APAC, all around the middle east and Africa and parts of Europe. And I think it’s really around the coming from New York city.

I should say it’s more evolved there [00:18:30] because it’s so diverse. And the rest of the world may not necessarily have had that opportunity to evolve or that experience of evolution. And in New York city, there are certain things where things are not [00:18:45] okay to say or to do, or to perceive that externally.

That may not necessarily be the case. So it’s the patience of knowing that it takes time for people to evolve and to see and to perceive

[00:18:58] Bill Staikos: differently. So [00:19:00] giving people a little grace is not a bad thing, everyone’s on their own journey and appreciating that. Yeah. Got it. So I’m curious to hear from you Millie, a lot of, I get a lot of questions and why I asked this question of [00:19:15] Leaders and females and males sometimes as well, what advice do you have for others?

It doesn’t matter that you’re a female and a leader. You’re a leader in this space. But what advice do you have for others, female, or male for that matter? Outside of patients and and connecting the dots. Do you have [00:19:30] any other advice for. Individuals that are looking to get to similar levels as to where you are.

Maybe there’s, a junior analyst, with aspirations or, maybe even like a mid-level director with aspirations to head up a team at a global organization like yours, how, what [00:19:45] would you tell them? If you had an opportunity to sit down with them, I’m sure you mentor people in your own organization, but what would you tell them?

What advice.

[00:19:50] Millie Gillon: Typically I would say go in, if you really believe in something, going fight to have more of an opportunity. So you can go and prove yourself, proving [00:20:00] yourself over and over again is really what matters and others will eventually see. And that will help you to eventually become a thought leader and a people leader, which may or may not be someone’s goal.

But then also to understand [00:20:15] that failure is not that. No matter how great this failure may be perceived. Failure actually helps quite a bit in making us stronger. And it’s not about trying to be perfect all the time. And this has been an internal conflict of mine for [00:20:30] many years, especially with design thinking that I don’t always have to strive for a hundred percent or 150%.

And as an Asian, that is so difficult in me. I’m having a mental fight in my mind quite often. [00:20:45] That it’s okay to not be perfect. It’s okay. To just be directionally, having an about 70%, maybe more of accuracy or information or whatever it may be is good enough because then direction, which way to turn and pivot and [00:21:00] move into.

And it is, it’s really difficult as an agent to do that, but then to work in an environment that is always pro perfectionism, you don’t quite need to be perfect all the time. As long as you’re aware, you’re [00:21:15] conscious and you’re very self aware of what your shortcomings are and what lessons that you align with lessons and not failing on purpose is it is probably the most simple.

[00:21:29] Bill Staikos: [00:21:30] Yeah, I, I look, I always look at failing as certainly as a learning opportunity, but I always counsel people, you’re going to fail, but just, understand maybe what some of the risks and the trade-offs or failure are. So you can prepare for those. So it’s okay to fail it as long as you’re thinking ahead that is a possibility.

And B if you did, what kind [00:21:45] of risk for the company for yourself, for your family, whatever that is and what kind of risks might be ahead of you and to see how you might be able to mitigate them? Along the way. One, one

[00:21:53] Millie Gillon: of my piece is one of her when I was first new and people on my team and organization is starting to [00:22:00] get to me.

And they would come to me to equitize this made a big mistake and I’m like, okay, is someone going to jail? Did someone die? Am I going to jail? And I didn’t fight. And the answer is always no. And I said, that’s okay. Did you learn something? What did you learn? Teach me. Okay. That’s [00:22:15] fine. Let’s move on where we’re not losing our hair.

We’re not using us people. It’s okay. Yes. We made a mistake, but we’ll learn from it and it’s not the end of the world. And I think that is the most shocking piece for anyone who just gets to know me, get that. But [00:22:30] then what I typically do is I try to make it as public as possible. Even if it’s for example, they’re correcting me public, which is a big no-no culturally, but I try to make that as a positive example and I praised that so that everybody else can learn.

It’s okay. [00:22:45]

[00:22:45] Bill Staikos: Yeah. I love that you do that and create that safe space for people to share that they’ve made a mistake too, right? Like there, there are a lot of people in this world. Trey and barrier, try and hide it. Maybe it’ll go away, sit on it for way too long. I had a boss at chase [00:23:00] that always used to just, we’ll Jamie diamond used to say that.

So maybe he got it from him. He would just say problems don’t age. It’s not like wine. So deal with it. As soon as you see it, move on, like it’s happened. You can’t do anything about it. So learn from it. And fix it if you can, but just keep moving [00:23:15] forward. There’s no point in looking backward and beating yourself up for something that’s already happened.

So good for you for doing that. So Millie, I’m curious just for just sticking on that diversity topic and the gender diversity topic or racial diversity or, diversity of thought even Thinking about allies [00:23:30] in the world that wants to also make a difference. What advice do you have for them maybe that might be different than what you might give to someone who’s a female or a person of color, or, different background.

[00:23:41] Millie Gillon: I learned really early in my career that it is not [00:23:45] okay for me as a woman to go and stand up for women’s rights for any type of. Whether it’s Asian monitoring, that may be but instead to go and find my allies, my male allies, and go and feed on this [00:24:00] information, not so much as you need to go and say this is what happened.

What do you think? That’s not fair. That’s not right. And have them go and speak up because if I, as a female or I as a different. [00:24:15] They feel features others, then it will fall on deaf ears. If I say something, but if it’s one of my male allies who says it, people will listen because it seems much more unbiased.

Actually it is. And I have found that [00:24:30] is so much more helpful for me. So now in my current organization, what I’ve started to do is try to create champions, diversity champions, or equality to. And really highlight when someone stands up for someone [00:24:45] else and hold that as an example and showcase, this is the right type of behaviors that we want to have in our culture.

So having them to shut down passive volume or interrupting, or taking credit from others, respecting newbies and respecting [00:25:00] others who are in a diverse position.

[00:25:02] Bill Staikos: Again, just, I love that just creating this safe space for people to be themselves and know that it’s okay. If I say something and stop behavior that shouldn’t be happening.

I won’t be looked at differently than myself. I always do wonder, [00:25:15] what is that? W there’s some social stigma, that holds people back from doing the right thing sometimes. It’s fascinating. Isn’t it just like the human condition is really it blows me away to think about that.

That’s tough sometimes. I’m guilty of it myself. I know. Like I’m guilty of it [00:25:30] myself. It’s I’m not saying that I’m perfect in any way. I’ve learned over the last, many years to, to be able to step in and even pull someone aside and say, Hey, what you said there, how do you think that may have made them.

To your point, like just. Help them think about and internalize and be [00:25:45] empathetic about the issue hopefully, or you hope they internalize it. They learn from it and it doesn’t happen again. I’m sure there’s a lot of that. There is a lot of that going on in the world, unfortunately, still today.

I hope that we do get past that at some time. Let’s talk a little bit of maybe a [00:26:00] lighter topic if that’s okay. If we can switch gears. I’ve got one more question you have to get on with your day it’s late in the evening, my time. I’m curious. Millie, like where do you go for inspiration?

Like where do you get that from? And you’re in your life or whether professional or even [00:26:15]

[00:26:15] Millie Gillon: yep. On the personal side, and then I’ll let you know, on my professional side, personal side, my husband and my kids, my husband is constantly pushing me, especially when I say I can’t do that. There’s no way I can aspire and get to that or [00:26:30] accomplish that because yeah, sure.

He can. Of course. And he, it’s like a intellectual kick in the butt. I’m constantly being moved forward and pushed forward. And I don’t think that I would ever make it this far in my life or my career without his [00:26:45] kick in the rear end all the time. But then also my kids, they really do inspire me and they asked these very basic questions of why does that happen?

That, and I’m like, oh my goodness, no one. That is why children are the past innovators, because they’re always [00:27:00] asking why and how could that exist? Meanwhile, as adults, we put ourselves in a confined box. If we look at the, on the professional side, a variety of media sources, but I constantly try and [00:27:15] read, I really try my best to keep abreast of what’s going on in the world.

Because when I start to read about the problems going on in the world, that helps to inspire me to go and fix. What can I do to solve that? What is it that I’m working on right now that I can incorporate that in [00:27:30] as a value proposition internally sell it, but most importantly, how can I help society to address that?

So I love reading pieces from HBR, Harvard business review business. New York times, wall street [00:27:45] journal, nothing political there, but then also something like, I think it’s called business of fashion, very random, but I learned so much about so many different aspects of different industries from something like business of [00:28:00] astronaut has nothing to do with what I’m focused on.

But I actually do get a lot of inspiration in terms of picking and choosing all of these pieces all around, but it doesn’t on the surface. Doesn’t look like it has any relevance to. But that’s what true innovation is. [00:28:15] That is a true transformation is and how we can truly make a difference.

[00:28:20] Bill Staikos: So really cool that you read that in your drawing parallels.

I liked it. So if I can keep it kick out with you for one second. And you’re like, so I love nature journals and physics [00:28:30] journals. So I was terrible at physics in high school. Just terrible. I didn’t fail it, but Lord knows. I tried many times to probably fail at course. I just, I didn’t understand that.

I didn’t want to just get to know it, et cetera, but now I actually read physics journals and the parallels that I’m able [00:28:45] to draw, even in design thinking. Or banking for that matter. What would this look like? If things were to change this way, maybe in an onboarding process, or if they, if onboarding, reacting, someone reacted this way, et cetera.

So I do try and draw those parallels a lot from that perspective. Sometimes [00:29:00] I’m successful sometimes I’m not, but like some really great inspiration has always come from reading something in a completely. Parallel or close field. And if you can draw those parallels, sometimes real innovation can happen.

So really cool. I

[00:29:13] Millie Gillon: can probably do with you. [00:29:15] And just one last piece to that. Yeah. Just because I was horrible in physics too. I’m really ashamed to actually

just because we perceived ourselves as bad in something back in [00:29:30] school doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be turned off to it. Any of that discussed with our adults. We’ve changed. We’ve evolved and the content and our sources attention.

[00:29:41] Bill Staikos: Yeah. And you can, that’s the beautiful thing about life, right?

You have time to change. And [00:29:45] think about what a better person you are when you’re able to. So I’m really, I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. I really appreciate you spending some time with us today and taking, taking 30 minutes out of your busy schedule to speak with us. What a [00:30:00] great story.

I’m so grateful that. I feel like for some reason I’ve known you for a really long time. I think it’s all like the parallels of us working at some of the same institutions, but it has been a really fun conversation. Yeah. And it could be the physics too. Just the, I won’t share what grade I got.

I just won’t go that [00:30:15] far. It, this is a safe place and I feel it, but I’m not going that far. But yeah, thanks so much for coming on the show so

[00:30:20] Millie Gillon: much for having me. This has definitely uplifted my whole.

[00:30:23] Bill Staikos: Oh, gosh, that’s really you to sec. Hope to see you either in Singapore or maybe back in the states at some point.[00:30:30]

You too. All right, everybody. Another great episode. We’re out.