Michelle Garcia Dorminey VP of Consumer Experience Strategy at TruCar talks CX Strategy

Michelle Garcia Dorminey

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[00:00:00] Bill Staikos: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another week of Be Customer Led. Another amazing guest for you. All Michelle Garcia Dorminey is vice president for consumer experience strategy TrueCar. And she also has background at both Porsche and Cox Automotive. I’m really excited because Michelle has a very different role, uh, in.

[00:00:28] Think about from a consumer experience [00:00:30] strategy perspective. And I thought it was just really fascinating. And I was like, this is really different. I’ve got to have Michelle on the show. Michelle. Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you for having me. So, all right. First question, everybody knows, um, is talk to us a little bit about your journey, how you got into the role you’re in today.

[00:00:47] How did that kind of manifest because you have this really fantastic background across research strategy tech, et cetera.

[00:00:55] Michelle Garcia Dorminey: Sure. Yeah. So, um, I would have to start from the very beginning. [00:01:00] I really, um, I grew up in Miami. I , um, I was actually an ESL kid, so English is my second language and, uh, the daughter of immigrants, you know, so, um, We didn’t have much and they didn’t go to a higher education, but what they did have and what they did instill in me is this entrepreneurial spirit and empathy for others.

[00:01:25] Um, so for the entrepreneurial spirit, that kind of drove me [00:01:30] into getting my degree in finance. Um, and what I love about finances. It’s in every conversation in business, it is business, right. It touches so many aspects of business. And so it really gave me a great foundation to start from. Um, and then, you know, like I said, empathy, I mean, whether it’s internal or external people are why businesses exist.

[00:01:52] So having. Uh, that skill, that ability of, of empathizing with folks, um, is [00:02:00] really crucial, I think, for, for businesses. Um, so those two skills really allowed me to succeed well beyond my finance degree. As you, as you were mentioning before, I’ve worked in various, uh, companies, departments as well. Um, you know, finance obviously, but I went on to work at marketing operations, new ventures, uh, to where I am today.

[00:02:20] VP of consumer experience. So

[00:02:22] Bill Staikos: let’s talk a little bit about that role, um, because you focus on strategy development around the [00:02:30] customer for true car versus what, you know, traditionally, as I alluded to at the top of, uh, of the podcast, you know, design or VOC, et cetera, uh, Talk to our listeners a little bit about how that might be different at true car for you.

[00:02:47] And I know that you kind of created the role too, which is pretty cool. Um, you know, walk us through that and, and how you’re creating value for true car.

[00:02:54] Michelle Garcia Dorminey: Sure. Yeah. Ambiguity is definitely not something I shy away from. Uh, I [00:03:00] do enjoy that space, but, um, yeah, so. Um, yeah, the definition of it is really the sum of every interaction a customer has with a business.

[00:03:09] Right. And when folks think about that, I think a lot of times they think about the customer support chatbots are our current existing products and services, right. And how we can make the experience easier for consumer or customer. And that’s absolutely needed in a company. You absolutely need to have that.

[00:03:28] Uh, w what I look at is [00:03:30] the, the, the macro trends and things beyond our current state, through the eyes of a consumer. And so that requires understanding how consumers interact, not only with our, our industry, but, but also. Other industries, you know, uh, how to consumers interact with vendors. Um, what are some of the macro trends that are impacting consumers in the future?

[00:03:51] Um, because the way I think about it as a consumer’s lives are happening and behaviors are changing while we’re building and while we’re [00:04:00] planning. And so it’s, it’s good to gain insight to which potentially could lie ahead. And that’s what I work on.

[00:04:07] Bill Staikos: So. So thinking about creating that strategy. I mean, how do you go about doing that?

[00:04:13] Because a lot of there are a lot of CX leaders, sort of the classical even CX, um, or organizations that may not have. Yeah. The type of talent that, and thinking that you bring to the table, Michelle, like what advice do you have [00:04:30] for people to start doing that kind of work or, cause I love that you’re doing that one because it’s really important because often whether you’re in airlines or travel or retail or hospitality, whatever it is, you often think about your customer and that journey, and then checking into the hotel or maybe going to the dealer and buying a car, et cetera.

[00:04:49] But there really is so much more raw. Right there just generally even kitchen table economics that go into decision making purchases now, particularly for something as expensive as a car. [00:05:00] What advice do you have for people to start to think about maybe even integrating that into their work today?

[00:05:06] Michelle Garcia Dorminey: Yeah.

[00:05:07] So, um, when I think about strategy, I, I guess the first thing that I would recommend is a lot of reading. Uh, you know, you, you’re trying to understand not only your industry, but in, in your company, but also the world that’s around. Right. And so, um, some of the reading material that I like to go through is, [00:05:30] you know, obviously like industry magazines for the automotive industry.

[00:05:32] So you’ve got automotive news, which is a big application within our industry. Um, another that I like to look at is believe it or not, uh, venture capital. They oftentimes will have newsletters and things that they’re looking at and out in the market. And so those are kind of interesting, uh, newsletters to get in your inbox.

[00:05:50] Um, Harvard business review, obviously, you know, and other large, um, research publications that are, are really great at, at getting some of that, um, that [00:06:00] foresight. Uh, market intelligence, newsletters. You know, one that I like to look at is, is morning consult. Uh, and, and, you know, all these things just arrive in your inbox every morning and you can just spend time reading them over coffee.

[00:06:12] Right. Um, so that’s, that’s a good way to start thinking about strategy and, um, you know, just understanding more about what’s going on around you. Uh, the other thing that I like to employ too, is speaking to experts in their. That’s right. And learning more from them, um, about [00:06:30] what’s happening in their world.

[00:06:31] So those are good sources for kind of spring that, you know, strategic thinking. Um, and then as you’re reading and you’re gathering those insights, you know, you’re asked yourself what. What do you do with this knowledge and information? Right? What does it mean for your company? And you start looking at things from, from that lens.

[00:06:51] And, um, I like to think about it, like almost working on a piece of art. You start with a blank canvas. There’s no right. No wrong. You’re just, you’re going out [00:07:00] there. You’re looking for things. Um, you’re, you’re maybe deciding what you want to paint or you’re deciding what colors to use. You’re deciding, you know, what, what types of paint to use right.

[00:07:10] Um, you may not even see the final product when you start to actually like, you know, figure all this stuff out or think through these things, but eventually become something. And that’s, that’s essentially what we’re working through strategy is, is, is like, um, and, and when you get to the creation of strategy, that’s where a [00:07:30] few things come into play.

[00:07:31] Uh, you know, you’ve got deep listening and empathy. Uh, again, I come back to that, right. And it’s not that you’re going to develop. Piece of strategy. That is, let’s say group think, right? Um, you, you, you want to take all advice from people you want to listen to their perspectives, listen to their concerns.

[00:07:53] And some of those things might get implemented. Some of those things you might look at and you think, huh, okay, I can tweak this one part and it actually [00:08:00] makes it stronger. So you know, that deep listening and empathy is really something that happens throughout the process. Um, Secondly, you know, it should be about solutions, not necessarily about problems while you want your strategy to be durable.

[00:08:16] Um, you, you also don’t necessarily want to talk yourself out of a good plan or a good strategy, right? Because there’s, uh, there’s dozens of what ifs, which, which kind of brings me to my third one where it’s like, you want to, de-risk your strategy. [00:08:30] And, um, you know, you can’t plan for all contingencies, but.

[00:08:34] I need to, um, uh, go through some experimentation and testing of various hypothesis that, that encompassed that strategy and, and it needs to be flexible. Um, you know, something you come back to, uh, you know, I’ve seen it as, as frequent as every month. I’ve seen it every quarter. I mean, it really just depends on.

[00:08:53] The strategy, the pro project. Uh, but it’s, it’s something that, you know, you come back to and it lives. [00:09:00] Um, so you you’re, you’re constantly, uh, you know, potentially iterating on it. Um, and, uh, what’s interesting about also experimentation that I really love is that people get excited when they see experiments and it’s, it’s not even that they have to.

[00:09:17] Um, provide amazing results, right. And experiments can, an experiment can fail and that within itself is learning and that’s what makes it so amazing. And so, so [00:09:30] rewarding. Um, because every experiment you’re learning something about your strategy and you’re making it that much stronger. So de-risking, and managing that risk and strategy, I think is really crucial as.

[00:09:42] I L I

[00:09:43] Bill Staikos: love that last point a lot. I don’t think, I feel like so many companies just say, here’s our strategy. They put it up on the wall, everybody follows it kind of filters down. And then that’s what you’re working on for the rest of the year. I can’t tell you how many times in my 25 year career I’ve looked back and I’m like, well, that’s not going to [00:10:00] work because we just did this in the failed.

[00:10:01] Like, what do we do next? We just move on right. Versus saying, strategy need to change. Right. I never really thought about strategies of living thing. I love that.

[00:10:11] Michelle Garcia Dorminey: Well, and I think, you know, it does boil down to humans. You know, we, we, uh, don’t really love change, right? It’s something that we, we, uh, there’s a lot of studies out there that talk about this.

[00:10:25] Um, so I think inherently, we try to avoid it and [00:10:30] we try to do everything we can to kind of control the situation and get things to fit within that box, that plan that we’ve established. Um, and you do need a plan and you do need to execute on that plan and, and, you know, the, the shorter term that you have.

[00:10:44] Um, for a plan, the more likely you are to be able to implement it, you know, with, with, without too many things kind of getting in the way. Right. But the longer you go, it gets harder and harder. And because, you know, macro economics and different things that come into [00:11:00] play. So, uh, you know, when you’re, when you are looking at.

[00:11:03] You know, that longer-term strategy. It does need to be a bit more.

[00:11:08] Bill Staikos: How far do you typically go out? I mean, I’ve seen, you know, McKinsey, or maybe I started in Harvard business for you. Like the strategy cone goes kind of like 10 plus years out. Right. It’s just, you know, that, what does that sort of broader systemic change that we might see down the road versus, you know, five years out versus three versus one?

[00:11:25] How far do you like to go out, like in, do you have a [00:11:30] preference in that? Uh, as well, I’m just

[00:11:32] Michelle Garcia Dorminey: curious. Yeah, that’s a great question. I actually, it depends on the role, right? It depends on the role that I’m in, uh, in, in this particular role, you know, future casting, uh, looking beyond the potentially like, you know, three to five year mark is something that I look at a lot.

[00:11:49] Um, and, uh, you know, but, but there are also times where I will be working on a project or initiative that is a much shorter. [00:12:00] You know of a timeframe. So within that one to three, you know, potential year. So it’s, it really just depends on the project. Depends on the role. Um, but I, I, where, where I think I, I, uh, I really enjoy, you know, the, the conversations and the dialogue is, is, you know, in that future state, because there’s so many different possibilities.

[00:12:19] Bill Staikos: Yeah. Very cool. Um, that’s where my head is constantly going. Um, so, so true car is a really interesting company because. You’re a marketplace [00:12:30] with, um, sort of a multiple masters as we had talked about. Um, how do you think. The concept of managing experiences through two-sided marketplaces. Cause that’s gotta be really difficult versus if you’re a retail company, you’ve got the consumer.

[00:12:45] If you are a B2B, you might have, you know, a manufacturing or you’re a manufacturer. You’ve got B2B customers, right. You’re looking at, um, two different sides of the trade, which is a lot more complex. Is there, [00:13:00] is there anything different that you have to do to accommodate for that? Do you think?

[00:13:04] Michelle Garcia Dorminey: Um, that’s a good question.

[00:13:06] I would say, you know, there’s definitely, uh, a push pull sometimes, uh, that, that occurs and that’s, that’s not just even unique to true car. I would say that. You know, my, my time working at Porsche, um, you know, we had our dealer network as well as our consumers that would purchase our products. So it really, I think is, uh, is something that is happening to a [00:13:30] lot of businesses today where they are actually being pulled in multiple directions by multiple masters.

[00:13:37] And so how do you manage that process? I think it, it comes down to balance, you know, it’s a, it’s a very artful balance of, of, uh, Ensuring that you have your ear to the ground for every stakeholder. And also I go back to empathy, you know, I’m walking a mile in each of those stakeholders shoes and [00:14:00] understanding what their experience is with your brand, with your product, with your service, that will get you a long way, you know, um, having that.

[00:14:08] So

[00:14:08] Bill Staikos: crucial. I mean, even for B2B companies on some level, right, you have to design products and services that are going to help that client deliver a better experience at the end of the day. Right. So really thinking about, you know, extending that empathy beyond sort of your direct consumer customer, um, is really.

[00:14:26] You know, Michelle, you use strategizer and lean startup [00:14:30] methods in your role. If you can just take quick 30 seconds to one, describe what those two are, because a lot of our listeners may not be familiar with them, but then why, why those two tools versus maybe others that are out there in the marketplace?

[00:14:44] Michelle Garcia Dorminey: Yeah. So, um, I certainly, I can start with, uh, maybe giving a little bit of a definition on some of the tools that are out there. So, um, you know, one that a lot of folks probably know of is design thinking and that’s really an approach to a problem. It’s how you [00:15:00] think in developing a broad range of solutions for that problem and solutions to one problem can be.

[00:15:07] As broad as like a product, an app, a service. I mean, you’re, you’re basically looking at the entire spectrum, your lean startup method. It actually helps, uh, drive a better version of either an existing or new concept. So the idea is create an MVP and iterate, iterate fast and constantly. So that’s, that’s kind of the lean startup [00:15:30] method.

[00:15:30] Um, the strategizer method is, is really a framework that builds on. Design thinking and lean startup. It also brings in things like the business model, canvas value proposition development, um, and it also speaks to how to manage our portfolio of ideation creation within large corporations. So it gives you a good blueprint from that perspective, too.

[00:15:52] Um, I think. People probably have the most or the most questions probably come up is maybe between like design thinking [00:16:00] and lean startup and how those come together. Uh, I, I actually found a really interesting analogy for it that, um, IDEO came up with and they. They, um, they mentioned it it’s similar to like a sea turtle mom who, who lays more than a hundred eggs each nesting season, but only a handful of those successfully hatch and make it to sea.

[00:16:24] So design thinking helps you discover which eggs might have the best chance of [00:16:30] survival. And, you know, you identify. Problems and design solutions to help them get there. Right? And then once the baby sea turtle makes it to see lean startup improves the chances of it successfully reaching adulthood. So you’re turning those proposed solutions into business models, rapidly testing with actual customers getting real feedback, right.

[00:16:52] And then you learn, you iterate towards product markets. The important thing, honestly, uh, with, with all, [00:17:00] all these methodologies I think is to gain an understanding of, of each of them so that you can apply the best one for you and your business. So it’s not necessarily like. Strategizer versus lean startup versus design thinking.

[00:17:15] It’s, it’s really what makes the most sense for you and your company? You know, I, I think back to, um, I don’t know if you’ve watched the, the office TV show, but, uh, Michael Scott, I don’t know if you [00:17:30] remember. Uh, this particular scene where he’s following the GPS. So intentively that he literally drives it, drives his car into a pond, right.

[00:17:40] Because that’s where the GPS is telling him to go. Yeah. At the core, these methodologies are all about learning and failing and learning, you know? And so don’t be scared to use. One to use another or to use a hybrid of them, you know, personally, that’s what I do. I actually use a hybrid of them. [00:18:00] Um, in any given point in time, you know, I will use one the other or multiple.

[00:18:05] So, um, each has something to offer and I think that’s, you know, it’s important to just understand what each of them can provide to you and your.

[00:18:14] Bill Staikos: Such important council. You know, even when I was in a CX customer experience leadership role, I would always tell my team don’t be married to the toolkit. It’s just a toolkit, right.

[00:18:23] Figure out what is the right toolkit to help the business achieve its goal, um, in a customer friendly way. Of course, [00:18:30] um, I feel like in customer experience, generally, we don’t have that philosophy. We say, here’s what I’ve got to do. I’ve got to do a survey, I’ve got to do analysis, I’ve got to do whatever.

[00:18:38] Right. But like, Is that really the only solution? Probably not. Right. Um, so that’s good advice. Okay. So we’ve got strategy broadly. You’re looking out, um, future casting, you’re using, um, different tools. We’ll be able to get there. How do you then connect that to the tactics of a business? So, yeah, I’m [00:19:00] sure the product and the development organization at TrueCar is pretty strong, right?

[00:19:04] Like how do you bring them into all that and engage them in a way that they say, okay, Michelle’s said here’s where our sort of consumers are going. Then what does product do with that as an example, and are there different tools that you’re using? Um, or a ways of engaging, uh, to make sure that the strategy you’re creating is sort of making them, making it back into the tactics of the company.

[00:19:26] Michelle Garcia Dorminey: Yeah. So I go back to [00:19:30] collaboration and teamwork, and really that’s the key to, I think, developing a solid strategy and one that can survive execution, especially. You’re not the owner of executing on all of the pieces of that strategy. Right. And oftentimes you’re not going to be so sharing your strategy or even your ideas or what you’re learning or.

[00:19:52] With those other leaders across the company, I think is super crucial to developing that strategy and having that [00:20:00] strategy implemented. Um, yes. Speaking with those function leaders and letting them know, Hey, this is what I’m thinking, or this is what I’m seeing. Um, you know, what do you think, you know, what are you saying?

[00:20:11] Uh, Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s a good way to establish rapport. You establish relationships within the company. Um, and, and just being a sounding board for one another. Uh, and, and when it comes to that strategy, actually being executed on. Exactly to what you’re describing, right? If, [00:20:30] if product is, is actually going to be helping with implementation of, of a large portion of that product or a large portion of that strategy, um, there’s no one in the company that knows their people better, their processes, better their pipeline, and how to really best execute within that function within the company.

[00:20:50] So. You know, Hey, this is the strategy, this is a, a draft of it. You know what I’m thinking? What are your thoughts? You know, do you have any [00:21:00] feedback for me? And how would you go about implementing this? How would you go about executing on this? How many resources do you need? Do we have the proper resources?

[00:21:07] Do we need to go out and get some? So, you know, you have those conversations. Um, I think early on and throughout the process of developing the strategy, the, the more you’ll you’ll get buy-in, which is also. Really key. Um, and, uh, just, it also helps them feel like they were part of the process. And so they’re invested in the strategy and they’re invested in it’s, [00:21:30] it’s a.

[00:21:30] It’s successful execution. Right? So, uh, that, that oftentimes is where I see sometimes strategy fail is where you’re not bringing in other people into the conversation and you, or you’re not bringing them in, um, you know, early enough to provide that feedback that’s needed in order for the strategy to actually get executed.

[00:21:53] Bill Staikos: So I wonder. So one, that’s really an important point actually wonder as you think [00:22:00] about sort of the future of work and, you know, leader’s responsibility is no longer telling people what to do. Here’s our strategy. It feels like we’re moving in a direction where that is a little bit more collaborative and employees or the workforce has a little bit more of a say.

[00:22:13] And, um, and, and what that strategy might be. Um, and employees being a bigger source of innovation, perhaps. Um, is that something that you’re seeing as well or trying to maybe even bring it to true car?

[00:22:27] Michelle Garcia Dorminey: I think so. I think, you know, uh, [00:22:30] I great ideas and, uh, ways to make experiences better really come from.

[00:22:37] Every facet of the business, right. Folks that are having a conversation with a consumer and the consumer says, Hey, you know what? It would be really cool if y’all did this. Like that’s awesome. You know, that information is, is great to bring back into the business and, you know, see if it’s something that can actually be executed and implemented.

[00:22:56] Um, there’s also. Uh, you know, and that’s, that’s at the [00:23:00] ground level right. Of, of things that are happening day to day. And it, it spreads the gamut even from, you know, what, uh, leadership might be looking at. Right. And that broad spectrum. So, yeah, I, I see, I see ideas, uh, innovation really coming from. Facets of, of a business and, you know, all players.

[00:23:22] Uh, and I think that, you know, the, the key then is, is, um, to, to have [00:23:30] a good understanding of how strategy can be developed, uh, you know, someone that. Um, is maybe in, in consumer support. Right. And they, they hear like, know the example that I just gave somebody say, this is, this would be great. You know, how does that individual then develop, you know, the strategy or the, the, the conversation around that?

[00:23:50] I think having, um, you know, some of these, uh, strategy. Uh, you know, uh, these ways of, of [00:24:00] actually doing strategy and they’re in their toolbox, you know, is, is a good thing for them to have, you know, regardless of where they sit in the, in a company,

[00:24:09] Bill Staikos: um, really, really good advice. Um, okay. I’ve got a couple more questions for you.

[00:24:15] One, I’m always thinking about how customer experience is evolving and changing. Um, Particularly like the role of a chief experience officer or chief customer officer, because they’ve in the last, let’s say three years, it [00:24:30] feels like every company is now putting one into place. Um, what I’m starting to see is two things happening.

[00:24:37] One that chief customer chief experience or experience officer, excuse me, his own owning, like everything post-sales or they are morphing more into a strategy role like yours. I’m just curious to hear your perspective on what that evolution might look like. Um, because what I’m hearing from you in the role that you’re in absolutely has to be.

[00:24:59] To that [00:25:00] function in that role. I just don’t see it as much, which I think is really interesting. And I think a lot of folks are missing the train.

[00:25:06] Michelle Garcia Dorminey: Well, I think it’s tough too, when you have so much going on in current state to think, you know, future state as well. And that’s why I believe that, you know, there, there are, uh, many companies that are looking at, you know, um, let’s have folks focused on.

[00:25:25] Current state and ensuring the best possible outcome of current [00:25:30] state. Right. And maybe it includes, you know, some, uh, adjacent, uh, new areas of growth. But, you know, to look beyond that, let’s, let’s put someone that, that actually has that capability that, that, you know, that, uh, workload, um, um, that available workload, if you will.

[00:25:50] Uh, so. I think that’s happening a lot in terms of, you know, CSO versus CXO, uh, you know, a traditional [00:26:00] CSO role is, uh, it requires broad thinking. So you’re seeing issues confronting the company from a very broad perspective as, as, as broad as, as like a CEO would. Right. But then you also are required to be a doer.

[00:26:18] So you’re oftentimes. Working on operational day-to-day projects, working with cross-functional leaders to implement and execute on strategy and plans. [00:26:30] So you have to be able to see the forest as well as the trees. And that’s why a lot of folks, I think, in, in, um, you know, CSO roles end up having a very rich background where they’re not only a creative thinker, but they’re also an influential collaborator.

[00:26:51] I’ll bet many CSOs today are also thinking about experience because. In the experience economy, you know, that’s what we’re in. I [00:27:00] mean, uh, uh, according to gardener, you know, customer experience drives over two thirds of customer loyalty and then I’ll performs brand equity and price combined, you know, and, and a good customer experience also makes a person five times more likely to recommend a company and more likely to purchase in the future.

[00:27:18] So I, I think it’s absolutely key for, you know, CS . Thinking about experience and, and vice versa. I think it’s, it’s good [00:27:30] for, um, you know, CXOs to start thinking beyond their current state and what could potentially come down the pipeline so that they could also better prepare their departments for, you know, what could potentially lie lie ahead.

[00:27:44] Um, it’s, it’s funny because I, I, in thinking about, you know, what, you’re, what you’re asking, um, I do believe that there is. Uh, a change that’s happening when it comes to C-suites [00:28:00] in general. Right? Um, I don’t know if you’ve, you’ve seen where, uh, Huawei actually rotates their CEO every six months, which is interesting.

[00:28:09] Right. Um, we have a chief consumer officer who’s responsible for product marketing, branding, comms, customer support of any partners. So, I mean, it’s, you know, I think that the C-suite in general is. Definitely changing because this business landscape is changing. And so, um, it will [00:28:30] definitely evolve and need to reflect, you know, the, the changes in business landscape.

[00:28:36] Bill Staikos: Wow. Um, gosh, I need to dedicate like a whole show. Talk to you about that now. Um, I’ve got one last question for you. This has been personally, this has been. Inspiring conversation. I mean, it’s already actually one of my favorite podcasts, so I’m really excited for that to get this out now. Um, where do you get your inspiration from?

[00:28:56] Michelle Garcia Dorminey: Oh, that’s, that’s a great question. Um, well, [00:29:00] I would have to say that, um, I get them from probably two sources. Uh, my, my grandfather for one, um, he, uh, he passed away several years ago, but, um, he. Immigrated from Cuba. He was an entrepreneur, had a business in, in Cuba, which he lost, uh, when Castro took power.

[00:29:21] And, um, he came with, you know, only what he had on his back. And, uh, he made a life here and, and that is [00:29:30] truly inspirational. Um, you know, to me, there’s this, uh, word that we use, um, you know, So you just, you, you, you have the drive, you keep going, you do what you gotta do, right. And that’s, it’s the grit.

[00:29:43] Exactly. And, and that’s, that’s what I find incredibly inspirational from, from my grandfather. Um, and I would say the second one is his music. I love music. Uh, I definitely, you know, I find it incredibly inspirational, [00:30:00] um, different songs for, you know, different moods and, and, you know, whether it needs to get me going or I need to send or, or what have you, but, you know, uh, music is definitely my.

[00:30:11] Bill Staikos: And it’s so nice. Actually live music is coming back finally over the last couple of months, which is really a nice thing. I actually went to my first concert two months ago and I was like, it felt so good to be back out, listening to live music. Um, this has been a great conversation. Um, Michelle, thanks so much for joining me on the show and for [00:30:30] sharing some of your insights with our listeners.

[00:30:32] It’s great to have you on.

[00:30:33] Michelle Garcia Dorminey: Thank you so much. I’ve really enjoyed it. Appreciate you having me.

[00:30:37] Bill Staikos: All right, everybody, another amazing episode. Um, really, really great stuff. Have a good week. We’ll see you soon.