Danielle Harlan talks about the future of work and the impact on leadership

Danielle Harlan – The Center for Advanced Leadership and Human Potential

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[00:00:00] Bill Staikos: Hey everybody. Welcome back to another week of Be Customer Led. I have a really special guest for us this week. Danielle Harlan is founder and CEO, The Center for Advancing Leadership and Human Potential. Danielle’s a super interesting person, had a chance to meet her and get to know her.

[00:00:23] We were commiserating around young kids and having young kids before we got on on the show today. But Danielle, it’s so [00:00:30] great to have you on. I’m really excited to talk about the future of work and the impact on leadership

[00:00:34] Danielle Harlan: today. Thanks so much for having me Bill. It’s a pleasure to

[00:00:36] Bill Staikos: be here.

[00:00:37] Awesome. So I ask each guest before we get going is for them to share a little bit about their journey. You have this really rich and deep background. And I think listeners will want to hear more about it, but tell us a little bit about how you got to where you are today and founding this.

[00:00:55] Danielle Harlan: Ah, I love that question. Because I think we all have our stories, and they shape [00:01:00] who we are and the folks we become and the leadership style that we bring to the places in which we work. And I think it’s so important to talk about those because if we don’t see those, sometimes we can misunderstand one another.

[00:01:11] I think my story like yours in many folks is pretty long. So I’m just going to give you that the highlights, but I was born on a mountain overlooking the Pacific ocean and big Sur California, which I think. You and I have chatted about this a little bit. But I have the privilege of waking up every morning and just seeing miles and miles of mountains and blue ocean.

[00:01:27] And I think I share this because I think at a high level, it made [00:01:30] me a very big picture type of person. But living there also. I think shaped me into being a very strategic thinker. So my cousins and I would wander around, we lived on a ranch in big Sur and say let’s climb a Redwood tree, but okay, how do you do that?

[00:01:43] So I think that taught me a lot of creativity. Looking for opportunities, thinking about what’s the most efficient way, to get from here to there. When I was 11. I think are a lot of folks that’s a really taboo subject, but it actually was a really formative and ultimately positive experience for me.

[00:01:58] Mainly cause I think I learned a lot of [00:02:00] conflict management skills in that experience. It’s any child of divorce or many of us I think develop really being able to walk. Difficult situations and quickly understand the various perspectives and have deep empathy for everybody involved. But understanding what’s going on, why and how can we creatively kind of problem solve through this.

[00:02:19] And I think also then I live with my mom and two younger brothers, and I think that experience really. Gave me a lot of responsibility at a young age. I really had to help [00:02:30] out, getting the kids dinner and bath, getting them to bed while my mom was working out a lot of responsibility. And I think as an adult, I really still am someone who has a high degree of personal responsibility.

[00:02:40] Like here’s the task. Let’s make sure it gets done. I’m not going to quit till it’s done. And so even though it was challenging at the time, it definitely, as all of us with our stories have shaped us. So during that process, we had moved from California. Rural California to suburban DC. And I just had so many opportunities to [00:03:00] just notice the differences, in those two cultures, really thinking about how people in my new area in DC acted, what motivated them. This was during middle school, which is just such a crazy difficult time for a lot of that, right? Like the power dynamics and clicks. And I was so clueless. I was just this little hippie kid from big Sur.

[00:03:20] So it fascinated me. I also was like, not a particularly cool at that age. And so I was really just like observing and I think school also was something that became in [00:03:30] a lot of ways like a really safe place for me, especially academics. So college wasn’t necessarily a given, but I had some amazing teachers that really supported me.

[00:03:38] I ended up driving myself to college interviews. Graduated from college. And I think through that just became very aware of my privilege because of my education, because of my race, other factors around my identity. So long story short, I decided to become a teacher. I joined teach for America, just became super interested in.

[00:03:57] Human potential learning as a key [00:04:00] mechanism for positive social change and just the impact that education can have on our outcomes. Loved teaching taught special ed kindergarten and children with emotional and behavioral difficulties. Some of the most, I think, important and meaningful work in my life.

[00:04:13] But didn’t feel like I was affecting the kind of change I wanted to affect from within the classroom necessarily. I knew there were system level things going on that I didn’t understand. So I decided to go back to school, went to Stanford, ended up doing a PhD in political science. Master’s in education, such a cool [00:04:30] experience for I’m such a geek on it.

[00:04:31] We’ve talked about those are both great. But I also, I knew I love learning from those folks. I love studying with them, but I did not want to be an academic. It was just a little. Too removed. I think from the work for me and the process of research was a little too long to hold my attention. I love reading other people’s research.

[00:04:51] So I ended up going to work for the Carnegie foundation, became COO there, long story short, just really encountered some amazing leaders, became [00:05:00] interested in. Leadership as a key lever for change. So started off this big picture person, interested in strategy, super interested in human relationships, dynamics, conflict management then have these kind of teaching skills, these research skills.

[00:05:14] So I left Carnegie to write a book, which I did the new alpha, which we’ve chatted about that morphed into consulting that became a team and that became the center for advancing leadership and human potential. Very cool.

[00:05:26] Bill Staikos: Very cool. I love that. I love that you started a T as [00:05:30] a teacher and got such incredible perspective.

[00:05:33] You must bring that. You must bring that learning. I’m assuming working with children and working with adults, there’s so many different parallels there that you can bring in, as well. And I love that story. Let’s talk about the future of work a little bit. I want to get your perspective.

[00:05:48] This is such a burning topic right now. Not only just, a lot of people are talking about return to work right. Generally right now, but the future of work, it is such a big open thing. How are you thinking about it or [00:06:00] what are you hearing from the people that you’re talking to as well?

[00:06:02] Danielle Harlan: Yeah. Yeah. I would love to get your take on this too, to see how much of this aligns. I was thinking a lot about this in preparation for this interview. And I think there’s a couple of big themes that I’m seeing now, and I’ll bounce these off at you and you can let me know what you’re saying. I think one is, I think.

[00:06:19] Just as human beings, we’ve always been interested in living out our purpose. I think that’s something that brings, if we’re able to do that brings us fulfillment as human beings. But I think now I’m seeing in the [00:06:30] workspace that people are really demanding, that they want an opportunity to pursue their purpose and work for an organization that honors that allows them to do good in the world.

[00:06:39] It doesn’t mean it has to be like a nonprofit or, there are many. For-profit organizations that add value through their products or services, but people want to do good and live out their purpose. That’s one, two, I think I know you’re saying this, but I think people are more interested than ever in flexibility.

[00:06:55] And if there’s any silver lining in the pandemic, it’s taught us that actually there’s probably more [00:07:00] flexibility in our work than we thought there was. And I think three, a big one is that. People are more concerned with ethics than ever before. And there’s some great research pew research who’s down the road from us has done some nice work on this.

[00:07:14] But people are interested in honesty and integrity. And what I’m also seeing is transparency. What’s going on in the organization, why everything. Large-scale kind of organizational changes to pay bands and salary bands at seeing increasingly organizations are now [00:07:30] posting salary bands for roles.

[00:07:32] And I think around ethics also is just an orientation toward justice. What does it mean to be fair and equitable? To what degree are we doing that? To what degree are we falling short and how do we remedy that? And then I think the last two things I’ll just throw in are, I think people are interested in working for.

[00:07:49] High quality leaders and people who actually know how to manage other people. Punishment is always like the unsexy sort of stepchild of leadership, but I’m sure you’ve worked for terrible managers. It’s not a pleasant [00:08:00]

[00:08:00] Bill Staikos: everybody has. And you move on or you move into another role. The thing that, you know, to your first point in terms of that personal fulfillment, I’m also hearing a lot from.

[00:08:11] Whether it’s colleagues, et cetera, people are also asking the question. I’m not sure I connect with what this company stands for anymore. Back to that honesty or that, that perspective from the company, it’s just what is the mission and the purpose of this organization, does that even exist? Is it different now because of the pending. Or is it different than I thought it was because of the [00:08:30] pandemic? And because my own maybe values are much more clear. I know what I want a little bit more. The flexibility is huge. And that flexibility is it comes down to choice.

[00:08:40] We talked a little bit about that when we first connected is our company’s giving employees the choice to be flexible, or are they saying you can be flexible on these days? I’m like that’s not flexibility folks. Or even demanding a lot of the, a lot of big companies right now are demanding.

[00:08:55] Everybody come back. And that’s, and they’re staggering that when they’re trying to be smart about it, but [00:09:00] eventually they’re saying everyone will be back in the office. I just don’t see. As the way forward. I think that, I think you’re going to, I think these companies are going to lose a lot of great talent and the whole great resignation.

[00:09:11] I know there’s a lot of just money out there generally, and people are recalibrating, pay band, et cetera. But I really do think that it comes down to leadership, connecting with the purpose and the mission, but then coupled the third thing is. How are my own values starting to change as well to, to your point.

[00:09:29] Danielle Harlan: [00:09:30] Yup. Yup. A hundred percent on all of that. I think that’s really aligned. I think. There’s always been an employee value proposition, right? What’s like the bucket of goodies I get for working for this organization. And I think for a long time we thought that was a certain set of things like pay seem really important.

[00:09:45] And there’s some great research showing that. Yes, they actually does matter. But after a certain level, it becomes less important and that there are other things that matter to folks. I’m certainly not saying like pay folks less, but I’m saying if you want to have a competitive employee value proposition, to your point, if you don’t want [00:10:00] people just leaving, you need to think about what is it that folks truly want.

[00:10:03] And maybe it’s things we haven’t considered. And I think flexibility. It comes in a lot of ways. It can be flexibility to your point around being in the office or out of the office and how that works, but it can also be around the types of work I put on what my work hours are. Sorry, the types of work I choose to do.

[00:10:20] There can be some choice in that. And I think when I work or how I do my best work. And so I think we’re seeing that kind of manifests in a lot of interesting ways, which is cool. I think it’s long overdue. [00:10:30] Yeah,

[00:10:30] Bill Staikos: for sure. And the compensation component I think is going to, every.

[00:10:34] Reversed the mean, I think that will, it’s just the fact of life. I think that will self-correct as well. And I hope, and I think part of the future of work is less about the employee and more about the workforce. And as you start to get Ann and I were just having this conversation with someone, just, we were just hypothesizing my hypothesis is as you start to get.

[00:10:55] People from outside of your traditional company employee the pendulum of, [00:11:00] and then you get, you’ve got great talent that you’ve got access to everywhere you bringing them in for part-time, whether it’s specific projects or maybe, two to three years versus, I need you now here for the next 20.

[00:11:08] I think that comp will be a weird thing again, and probably revert back to. Maybe okay. We’re leveling the playing field. And to your point, like being much more transparent about what we’re playing people which is a really critical part of that honesty and that Brokering a relationship at a deeper level with the people that work at the organization.

[00:11:26] Yeah.

[00:11:26] Danielle Harlan: A hundred percent. And one of the things you said that I just want to hit on, because I think it’s so key [00:11:30] bill is the idea of mission. I do think that’s so much more relevant to folks and it was, I remember five years ago partnered with an organization and I was like, do you have a, what’s your mission statement?

[00:11:39] And they’re like, oh, we have it. But it’s like in a drawer somewhere. And now I feel like all those organizations are like, where’s that drawer, like pulling them back out, dusting them off. Because I think there is so much around purpose. That’s wrapped up in that and it’s really relevant to folks, to be honest, I think it was a mistake to ever put it in the drawer, but I think organizations are finally starting to realize that, oh, you know what, this is actually meaningful.

[00:11:58] And it is part of [00:12:00] to your point, this employee value proposition it’s not just compensation, but also. What is the goal of this work? Not just the work that I’m doing, but the work that we’re doing collectively and what is my piece of that. So I love that. Yeah.

[00:12:11] Bill Staikos: Yeah. And, I’m also seeing a lot of that mission being intentionally designed into the customer experience.

[00:12:19] So customers or even prospective customers can really see and feel that, so that, that real connection starts to happen more and more. You did not see. Three years ago or two years [00:12:30] ago and now, and so I think it’s awesome that companies are working towards that. And I think that’s going to be a much, much bigger trend is as we look forward from

[00:12:38] Danielle Harlan: spot on.

[00:12:38] There’s some great research that shows that for millennials, this may be true for generation Z too. I’m not as deep in that research, but for millennials in particular, we are interested in buying. From brands that we feel like have a positive social impact, it’s interesting. So I’m 40, so I’m like the oldest technical millennial probably don’t fully fit in that generation.

[00:12:58] But so straddle generations. But [00:13:00] I think that’s true for a lot of folks. I don’t think it’s a millennial specific thing. I think that’s with millennials is that they are, we are specifically demanding it in a way that maybe previously hadn’t been done. But I think what you’re seeing totally mirrors what the research shows us.

[00:13:16] Bill Staikos: And I’m a gen Z are right. So I’m 48 and I was like, shut up, do what you’re told, eat everything on your plate and just go these things and don’t ask questions. It’s all oh, you bought what your parents bought and that’s it. You don’t ask any questions. I’ve got brands that I’ve used literally [00:13:30] for there in my life.

[00:13:31] 48 out of 40 years. I

[00:13:33] Danielle Harlan: know. And then someone will introduce something new. You’re like, I didn’t even know. This is so funny. So I I worked with a team of like true millennials at one point for quite a bit younger than me. And I remember none of them wore watches and I was like why don’t you, how do you know what time it is?

[00:13:46] They’re like, we just use our phones. And then one of them had a watch and oh, you have a watch. Like I had it. You’ll notice I’m not wearing a watch today. Something I learned from them and she was like, oh, it’s just an accessory. It’s like a decoration. It was so funny. But I was like, all right, You don’t need a watch.

[00:13:58] You have your phone on you. [00:14:00] Yeah.

[00:14:00] Bill Staikos: Although my apple watch, I used to be one of those folks who couldn’t live without a watch on his wrist. And it was like, if I left the house and it wasn’t on, if I’ve gone a hundred miles, I would drive back to my home to get it back. I do love my apple watch though.

[00:14:15] I got, and I use it more than an accessory, but

[00:14:18] Danielle Harlan: that’s the one. Yeah. It’s like loophole to that. Yeah.

[00:14:20] Bill Staikos: Let’s talk a little bit about leadership and how the pandemic has changed the leadership model. Maybe even turn it on its head a little bit. [00:14:30] What are you seeing in your work? And how leaders themselves, are they asking different questions of themselves?

[00:14:37] Are they thinking about their role differently in the organization? Are people looking, you mentioned a little bit for, good leaders, battlers. Are people looking at leadership differently, even like what, what has changed over the last 18

[00:14:48] Danielle Harlan: months? I love that question. It’s a deep question. And another one that I’m very curious to hear your perspectives on.

[00:14:55] I think fundamentally the focus has shifted from individual [00:15:00] leaders like a role or position someone who’s a driver to this idea of leadership, which I think is more relational. So Joyce Fletcher does some work in this. That leadership is the ability to work in and through relationships, which I think is fascinating.

[00:15:14] I think of leadership as a practice and the definition we use at the center is leadership is about facilitating collective agreement and ownership to your point of a shared mission and enabling the structures and support necessary to bring it to [00:15:30] life in a way that feels ethical, sustainable.

[00:15:32] And just so the key point here is that. On a large scale are our thinking around leaders and leadership is shifting from the sort of individual centric model to this idea that it’s a practice it’s about relationships. Sometimes it’s done by individuals, sometimes multiple people. But I think the key point here is that we have to build organizations that honor this practice of leadership.

[00:15:54] So I think it’s going to be less role dependent and more about sort of behaviors. We’re saying I’ll stop there though. [00:16:00] What’s your take on this?

[00:16:01] Bill Staikos: I want to get back to your point around honor companies need to be, honoring the role. That’s really interesting. I want to dig in a little bit.

[00:16:08] I think that if I look back on my career of a hundred years now there. I noticed like three kind of archetypes, right? One like the super visionary rock, got people motivated to the manager. Like I’m going to check my boxes and right. Like I’m not going to micromanage you, but here’s what we have to do.

[00:16:28] And then certainly like [00:16:30] the person who is paranoid and didn’t do a good job in micromanage. Give anybody information, I’ve experienced them all. I think that some of the differences now what I’m seeing in certainly what I try to practice. And I’ve tried to over the last, whatever, five plus years now, even as a leader, as I’ve changed and evolved as a leader is much deeper connection with the individuals on my team.

[00:16:52] People have heard me say this, like I try to leave with love. People are like, you lead with love. I’m like, yeah, you gotta lead with love. Like you got to love your people. You got to love your [00:17:00] team. And you can have professional love. It’s okay to use that word right in the company. And re, and what that means to me is helping them not only professionally, but also personally, and making sure that they know that whatever it is, like you were there to support them and help them grow and achieve goals that they have inside or outside of the firm.

[00:17:18] Because if they have goals outside of the firm, we’re going to have to maybe make some concessions inside the company to help. Achieve those goals, right? So it’s really trying to take a 360 view of someone on the team’s life [00:17:30] and saying, I am here for you no matter what, and I will make the trade-offs on this end to help you make or achieve the things that you want to achieve outside of the company, as well as inside.

[00:17:39] Totally. And I think that is a really different perspective than maybe I’ve been used to. The other thing that I think is really changing and I’ve tried to do, and I’ve tried. For a long time as give Trump. And not have it have to be earned. And I go into every relationship and I w I’m very upfront. I already trust you a hundred [00:18:00] percent.

[00:18:00] Don’t feel like you need to earn it. Now you can certainly lose it. The trust bucket you can spill up, you can spill water out of it based on what the individual does, but I will give it to you. And I’ve always promised, like I reset, I filled the bucket back up every year. Now I’ve been burned by that.

[00:18:15] Yes. Is it a great practice? I think so, because. People, I think people like working with me and it’s like, they telling me like, but I think it’s really important to give that trust upfront there they’re already working the company. They’re already a member on the [00:18:30] team. If you walk into a situation and say, you got to earn my trust, then why are you here?

[00:18:35] I, my last company is when I first started, a woman said to me, you got to earn my trust. W we work in the same company. Why do I have to? And by the way, I just went an interview with the CEO, the COO, the chief customer officer, the CFO, like, why do I have to earn your trust? I’m here. They trust me.

[00:18:56] Danielle Harlan: It’s like how many more hoops I have to jump through?

[00:18:59] Like I [00:19:00] belong.

[00:19:00] Bill Staikos: It slows down so much so much stuff. But back to your point in terms of companies investing in that and and that leadership. Are you seeing more of that? Given sort of the lens, just from the center’s perspective or are companies still getting that wrong?

[00:19:15] Danielle Harlan: Both. Yeah, I think there is a shift I think. Something that was very popular five years ago. I think it’s still popular, but I’m seeing it like expand a little bit more. It was executive coaching, right? So that’s a very individual centric method of [00:19:30] leadership development can also be highly effective.

[00:19:31] The folks at the door Institute at rice university. Awesome at that. So I don’t want to like poopoo that, but I think oftentimes when we’re thinking about the collective, it involves really looking at our systems and structures to see the ways in which they honor this practice of leadership or the culture that we aspire to have.

[00:19:50] And so it’s a little bit less like one-on-one coaching and I’m doing a lot more like strategic culture consulting type work. Just like you have a strategic plan for your business. What’s your [00:20:00] strategic plan for your culture? That’s a big one. And then another one I’m seeing two things that related.

[00:20:05] One is group coaching, particularly at the mid level or mid to senior levels of an organization. So it’s folks going through a coaching experience together. And I think that builds some of those connections and that relationship piece that we’ve been talking about. And the other one that I’m seeing a lot of that I love is mental.

[00:20:22] Programs. And I think that’s a really great approach for organizations, particularly that maybe don’t have a huge budget for [00:20:30] leadership development, but have some of that capacity within their organization when it’s done well, you usually do need. Someone with capacity from outside the organization to help launch it and build it out.

[00:20:39] But then often it can be run internally and we get some really powerful I’m thinking of a program. We just did powerful results from, start and then to midway to finish around not only the learning and leadership objectives, but also things like belonging, feeling included feeling connected to the work and organization.

[00:20:57] So I think those three things. Sort [00:21:00] of culture planning group coaching, and then mentorship programs are examples of how we’re seeing more of a focus broadly on leadership and not just this individual leader development.

[00:21:11] Bill Staikos: So the peer to peer coaching model, I’ve been a huge fan of, I’m actually a member of an organization called collaborative gain.

[00:21:17] I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it, but guy named Phil Terry started long time ago. If there’s something about coming together and it’s all non-competitive right. So they’ll pick people from non-competitive companies, but all maybe like heads of customer experience or heads of [00:21:30] product or CIO is, or general managers.

[00:21:33] And they bring together groups of 10, 12, 15 tops. They have a facilitator each month we come together. We talk about, here are the problems we’re trying to solve. How have you done that? I’ve always said like that model has literally added five years to my. Resume. Without like me working the five years.

[00:21:51] So I love that you’re seeing more and more companies embrace that model. I think it’s so critical when you bring cross-functionally people together, even within a [00:22:00] company and there’s

[00:22:01] Danielle Harlan: research that supports it. It’s interesting. I feel like oftentimes so I teach leadership and I teach leadership at Stanford and oftentimes people are like, but we want to hear what you have to say.

[00:22:10] Cause you’re the leadership coach and the leader developer or leadership development. And I certainly have opinions on things as I’m sure, you But I will say sometimes these questions come up that are so good where even if I think I have a great answer, if I throw it out to the group nine times out of 10, what we come up with as a group is so much more, I think, rich and actually helpful in terms of getting to the [00:22:30] root of the problem.

[00:22:30] And this is backed by research. We know diversity diversity broadly leads to better outcomes in terms of robustness of decisions and the. The quality of the outcomes is actually what my dissertation Rachel is on as well. So a huge,

[00:22:44] Bill Staikos: Oh my God, we can keep going on. We talked a lot about our empathy a while back and just why leaders need empathy, but also because of their position in the organization, there are just inherent biases where they may not plug into that as naturally, maybe.[00:23:00]

[00:23:01] Tell us why empathy is. I think we know, I think listeners generally know, but I just want, I’m curious to hear your perspective on why empathy is important, but then also, your view on that that bias where they may not see that because of maybe who they are. Back to your, how you start it off, right?

[00:23:15] Like the the things that you have in life that other do not the privileges, et cetera, the privilege of leadership is really strong, but isn’t necessarily something that’s talked about, but you mentioned it when we first chatted. So tell us, like, why am three important, just as well as the privilege of leadership and [00:23:30] what that means?

[00:23:31] Danielle Harlan: Yeah, it’s a really good question. At a high level, empathy is important for all the reasons we think it is. Empathy is fundamentally about putting ourselves in another person’s shoes and being able to connect and understand their perspective. And if you can do that, you’re going to be better at doing things like leading and managing people, putting together a collective and shared vision conflict management negotiation, right?

[00:23:54] This is empathy is an ability. That I think is the root of so many things we need to be able [00:24:00] to effectively do as leaders. I think the problem is that we all have blind spots around our ability to put ourselves in someone else’s shoes. And what I see is, and I include myself in this category.

[00:24:10] Sometimes we assume that because we. It’s something that it’s not real or not common, or because maybe we interpret a particular experience some way that someone else’s interpretation is wrong because they have a different interpretation of it. And I think that’s really dangerous for leaders in my experience, if people are saying, Hey, we’re suffering because of X, Y, and Z, that suffering [00:24:30] is usually real and needs to be addressed.

[00:24:31] And so I’ll just give you a very concrete example of this. I remember at the start of the panel. I had a newborn and a kiddo who was in preschool. And then of course, preschool closed and the newborn didn’t go off to daycare because everything was closed. And I remember I had a four hour session I had to facilitate on zoom that I had the pleasure of facilitating group, but, and we started off and my husband had to take that day off work to watch the kids while I, because we had no childcare.

[00:24:56] It was like a few days into everything being. Shelter in [00:25:00] place. And I got on the call and I remember the CEO of the organization. I were the first ones to join. And he was like this pandemic isn’t so bad. And I knew a lot of his staff, particularly his female staff. I knew they were suffering immensely and they’re just like, he just doesn’t get it.

[00:25:13] And when he said that to me, where I was up at 4:00 AM in the morning, with my newborn, the other kid didn’t have like childcare. My husband’s like scrambling to take off work. You. And he was with someone who I’m like friends with to this day. And I love him and he has a good heart, but I thought, [00:25:30] man, you do not get it.

[00:25:32] And I knew that people in his organization felt that too. And I think that’s a very good example of like well-intentioned, but he just didn’t get that. Maybe his context was a little bit different than other focuses context. Yeah. I think that answers most of your question. What was the other is the other part?

[00:25:47] What do they need? Yeah.

[00:25:49] Bill Staikos: So if you think about how do you identify the need for empathy then? So like here’s a CEO, clearly needs to be more empathetic in terms of what’s going around. What’s going on around him and his [00:26:00] organization. If you don’t have a mental cue to trigger.

[00:26:05] How do you know?

[00:26:06] Danielle Harlan: Yeah. Yeah. That’s a great question. I think empathy, the ability to have empathy is really part of a larger change in how we’re approaching leadership. So I keep it in the context of that. We need a model of what does effective leadership look like and how do we regularly. The degree to which we’re living up to it.

[00:26:23] So if we think empathy is a key part of that, I think most of us would, how do we know if we’re being empathetic? And there’s a lot of things I’m seeing organizations [00:26:30] do. I think you can assess like the pulse of the organization through, all hands meetings, town hall meetings, one-on-one conversations.

[00:26:36] If you’re in person, there’s that idea of management by walking, just walking around, chatting with people. But I think you can do that in the virtual context. I text or talk on the phone with folks all the time with whom I. Anonymous feedback is another great thing. And then regular assessments.

[00:26:49] So my team and I have an assessment platform that we built out that we really feel like honors this approach to leadership, just because there isn’t another good one that we’d found, but I think, find what works for you in [00:27:00] terms of doing regular assessments. The problem that I see though, sometimes is folks have these like workplace engagement surveys and they do them.

[00:27:06] They’re like, yeah, we’re doing them quarterly. I’m like, great. What do you do with the results? And they’re like, we talk about them. I’m like you share them back. Usually. Do you talk about what changes you’re making based on that? I’m usually not. I think it’s better to do an assessment once a year, that you actually are transparent about the results with and say, here’s what we’re seeing.

[00:27:21] That’s working. Here’s what’s not working. Here’s some ideas we have for improvements. What do you think than to do it quarterly and not really do anything meaningful because then people don’t trust the process. [00:27:30] Right there. Just like, why am I spending my time on the survey when I’m not seeing any changes that we’re not discussing this at all?

[00:27:36] So I think empathy is woven into that. I, And I will just say the other pieces, I think surrounding yourself with folks who are truth tellers kind want to let you know and sometimes that’s hard to hear, but really

[00:27:45] Bill Staikos: important. I I also have, I’ve put personally, I’ve put little ticklers in my calendar that kind of remember.

[00:27:54] Take a step back. Are you doing the right things? What do you think is going right? What do you think is going wrong? What, if the [00:28:00] opposite was true on big topics that you’re thinking about, et cetera. So just those little prompts I’ve always found. Otherwise you get so busy in the day-to-day.

[00:28:06] I feel like you can’t pull yourself out sometimes. You wrote a book in 2016 called the new alpha, which is which is a really interesting title. It’s a BA it’s a playbook, right? For that. Executives leaders, individual contributors, even who want to be these inspiring, supportive, engaging leaders.

[00:28:24] That feel like it’s still truth to the truthful today. Who doesn’t want to be [00:28:30] that? What would you change anything about the book today now that we’ve gone through what we’ve gone

[00:28:34] Danielle Harlan: through? Yeah. Yeah. I love that question. I think the new alpha concept, so the full title was the new alpha.

[00:28:39] How the next generation of leaders and Changemakers are redefining leadership. And I think it was all about broadening our perspective of successful leadership. It’s not just about achieving big goals, but also finding fulfillment, supporting fulfillment purpose-driven work and those around you, and really having a long-term positive impact.

[00:28:56] So that I think is all still true. But I think the past five [00:29:00] years, since the book came out, alpha has really become. An outdated term. So if I could rewrite the book, honestly, I think I’d keep the content the same, but I would retitle it to killing alpha. And I still get asked to give book talks on that all the time.

[00:29:11] And that is the title of the talk, because I think alpha itself just has come to really connote this idea of. The single sort of lone Wolf leader. And I think we need to get away from it. I don’t think it quite had that it had a more broad connotation when the book came out. That said, I think the new alpha is is a great book if you [00:29:30] need that sort of playbook.

[00:29:31] But I think a really nice companion piece is something around the idea of collective leadership. How do you transition from being an effective leader to really bringing to life this practice of leadership more broadly in the organization? Don’t tell my agent. I said that she’s always like

[00:29:49] Bill Staikos: we can edit this out if that’s a really interesting point. I do feel like leadership generally. It feels much more bottom up now. Or creating the [00:30:00] sense of, or creating that bottom up feel in an organization or a team versus. I’m here I can. I’m setting the vision and everything else I’m telling you what to do.

[00:30:08] Yeah, I I love killing alpha. Look you have a chance to read another book perhaps, or at least early you’re the author. I’m sure you can change the title if you want it to. I want to talk about the organization you founded center for advancing leadership and human potential.

[00:30:20] Tell our listeners about, the type of work you do. Individuals or teams, that you work with and w kind of the outcomes you don’t have to mention obviously, client names out nor dark, [00:30:30] nor would you, but what is the kind of work that you’re doing and what kind of value do you bring?

[00:30:34] Danielle Harlan: Yeah. At a high level, I think we are on a mission to transform leadership for the modern world. And I feel like this whole discussion, we hit on the ways in which that’s key, this idea, this collective notion of, a shared mission and purpose. I think the role of empathy, ethics, all of those things are woven into that.

[00:30:49] I think at a high level, what makes us different as an organization from perhaps other organizations that do leadership development work is we really think there’s like an art answer. So this work so there’s three [00:31:00] big factors that differentiate us. One is that we are very evidence-based and we really focus on results.

[00:31:05] Like oftentimes organizations will come in and say, for example, can you do, a leadership training on cross silo collaboration? And I’m like, great. What does success look like? And they’re like, oh, I was like, I can run a training, but like what do we want the outcome to be?

[00:31:21] And then how are we going to measure that? So I think that’s like key thing that we really try to hone in on too, because we all, as Mary Oliver, the poet says, we all have this one wild and precious life. What are [00:31:30] we going to do with it? And I don’t want to waste my time doing work that, maybe feels good or it’s like super fun, but doesn’t actually change outcomes for individuals and organizations.

[00:31:38] So I think that. That measurement piece is really key. And also the folks who work on our team are really experienced program designers and facilitators. We understand adult learning theory. So interesting to your point about me starting my career as a teacher earlier in this conversation I was on a call the other day.

[00:31:55] There were four of us and we realized we had all been educators at one point or another. And I think that’s [00:32:00] really woven entire ethos. And how we think about the work we do, not just what outcomes do we want to get, but how do we do. Way that feels like engaging and interesting and personally meaningful and that’s equitable.

[00:32:11] And that values justice and sustainability and just really ethics. And then lastly, I think, all of us on the team have real-world leadership experience. So we know. And using some of these concepts are in theory. And a good example from our conversation today is empathy, right? So maybe we should all have empathy.

[00:32:27] Let’s just do it a, but I know [00:32:30] I’m really frustrated. Like I think about this with my spouse all the time when I’m like super frustrated with him I know I should have empathy, but it doesn’t necessarily come easily. So we really try to build programs around okay, this can be hard in practice.

[00:32:41] Why and what can we do to make sure that we practice that. And I’m someone who’s always learning from the work that we’re doing. I think we really try to find programs where we feel like we can genuinely add value in a measurable way. Some of the example projects we’ve done to your question about that.

[00:32:57] We’re doing a lot of assessments lately around [00:33:00] this idea of what does it mean to be an effective, ethical leadership driven organization? And then also done a lot of training programs new managers, again, management, people management as this like unsexy stepchild of leadership, but it’s so important and makes such a difference if you can do well in terms of.

[00:33:18] Organizational outcomes, reduced turnover people’s engagement and happiness at work. Sometimes we do retreats, lots of group coaching. Last couple of years, group coaching has really taken off. We do one-on-one coaching too, [00:33:30] but group is great and much more cost-effective in a lot of circumstances, mentorship programs.

[00:33:35] Can I say retreats and yeah, the cultural audits and strategic planning. And we look for results to your point about results. We look for results that hit the learning goals, but also some of the cultural pieces around, levels of engagement, sense of belonging, feelings of connection with one another and the organization and the mission.

[00:33:51] So we can customize those to different organizations. But yeah, we get pretty good results because we’re really good at measuring.

[00:33:57] Bill Staikos: Okay. Very cool. I’m here. I hear a [00:34:00] lot, so I love all that you’re doing. I was just thinking about a couple of just examples through my career when I’ve heard people say, Hey, I want to start leading people.

[00:34:08] And I’m like, okay, why? Yeah. It’s an important step in my evolution in my career. And I won’t be able to move up if I don’t lead people. Okay, great. Now he’s asked. Are you prepared for people to cry in your office and are you prepared to cry with them?

[00:34:22] Danielle Harlan: Unexpected

[00:34:23] Bill Staikos: hours? Yeah. On a Tuesday at 3, 3 15.

[00:34:27] And when you’re really busy, right? Or are [00:34:30] you prepared to help people succeed and grow when you don’t? And that will mean that you may not succeed and grow. And it, all those things. That’s what leading teams is like. And I’m like, yeah. Yeah. And you ha it is a sport and you are playing for everybody else.

[00:34:50] It’s not the other way around. It’s really fascinating to me that the perception of leadership and I hope that through work that you’re doing obviously at the center, but also. Yeah, generally, just the experience, the [00:35:00] collective experience, we’ve all gone through over the last 18 plus months, that view is starting to evolve and change.

[00:35:05] It’s really an important topic and something that just really takes up a lot of my brain capacity these days. I’ve got one more question for you. And I love asking this question because the responses are so amazing. Where do you go for inspiration?

[00:35:21] Danielle Harlan: I think three things real quickly, one the people and organizations with whom I work, I feel like I have the honor and privilege of working across a lot of different types of [00:35:30] organizations around the world. So just different contexts, different sizes, different types of work. So I really feel like I have my finger on the pulse and it’s so cool to see the commonalities across those organizations and also the differences.

[00:35:41] So I get inspiration from that. Then again, another one that’s perhaps less common is. I make mistakes, sometimes the big ones. And I really have in the last 10 years of my career, tried to lean into those and really lean into the discomfort. And I think I’ve got some inspiration from that. And then lastly, and I think this is one you can probably relate to [00:36:00] my case.

[00:36:00] And kids are just so close to the source, and they’re so truth-telling, and the questions they ask are exactly the right questions. I feel like they’re saying why mom, why? And I’m taking notes. I need to ask. And so this there’s that concept in business of the five whys, to get to the root cause of our problem. And I’m like, whoever came up with that had a four year old we got that

[00:36:21] Bill Staikos: without a doubt, a hundred percent. I’m just like, and then there’s. Then by the fifth, why? They probably just here’s the answer, like here’s what it is. Just stop asking why[00:36:30]

[00:36:33] Danielle Harlan: I’ll just tell you just really briefly. We can totally edit this out if you need to. But my kid was learning about the five senses last week in preschool or maybe the week before. And so I picked him up from school and I’m like, okay. So you’re learning about the five senses you want to talk about.

[00:36:46] Like smell, sight, touch, whatever. He’s I want to talk about kindness. It’s and I’m like such a drill Sergeant. I’m like, okay. I said that, but let’s talk about those senses the thing that was like on your syllabus or whatever. And he goes. The only sense that matters is [00:37:00] kindness. And I was just like, that’s so great.

[00:37:02] You’re right.

[00:37:03] Bill Staikos: It’s a hundred

[00:37:04] Danielle Harlan: percent correct. Who cares about the other things? You’re right. It’s not totally a sense, but we’re not going to go there. It was just such a good insight and I just love the way their brains work. Try to make my brain work more like that. I

[00:37:15] Bill Staikos: know. Just got to just take it down to a very core, fundamental level.

[00:37:17] Just get down there and one and say, okay, I understand what you’re saying and that you’re saying it. I need to just get that back into the millennials and the gen Z’s and the gen X-ers and everybody else that we work with every day, they start thinking the same way. This is a great conversation.

[00:37:29] I [00:37:30] really appreciate you coming on the show. Love the love, the dialogue. Wonderful perspective. If listeners want to find you, what’s the best way to get in touch or find you website LinkedIn, what’s

[00:37:39] Danielle Harlan: the, yeah, I at Danielle Harlan, you can find me on LinkedIn and our organization is@wwwleadershipandhumanpotential.com.

[00:37:47] So yeah, I’d love to connect. Feel free to reach out. Phil. It’s been so much fun. Thank you.

[00:37:51] Bill Staikos: Absolutely. All right, everybody. Another great week. Another great episode. Amazing guests. We’re out.