Brad Quinton on How AR Advances will Reshape Experiences

Brad Quinton on How AR Advances will Reshape Experiences

[00:00:00] Brad Quinton: Welcome to be customer led where we’ll explore, help leading experts in customer and employee experience are navigating organizations through their own journey to be customer led and the actions and behaviors, employees, and businesses exhibit to get there. And now your host bill stagos.

[00:00:32] Bill Staikos: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to be customer led. I, this is your host bill Staco. I am so fired up for today’s episode one, because our guess is an amazing individual and has done some pretty incredible things in his career. But more importantly, this topic that we’re gonna cover and the technology is really slick.

I just, I’m so excited. So our guest today, folks is Dr. Brad Quentin. Now he’s a leader and an innovator who has constantly pushed the technology edge, both as an entrepreneur and as a researcher. So he’s founded and led for successful high tech startups, which is pretty incredible, has filed over 28 patents, which is even more incredible, has written numerous academic papers.

Brad has success successfully straddled the worlds of research and leading edge product development for over 20 years. Brad, welcome to the show. I’m so excited to have you here and talk about what you and your company have developed. It’s super cutting edge, and it’s really gonna be a game changer in the experience space.

Welcome to be customer led. Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me. It’s so excited to have you here now, Brad, the first question we ask every guest is for them just to share their journey with us. And, and what were some of the differentiating factors in your career as well?

[00:01:47] Brad Quinton: All right. Well, thank you. Thank you actually, for asking that question, it was a, it was a good time to sit back and think a little bit.

What are the Def differentiating factors? And, I have to say, looking. I got my first job. I started as an, chip designer. So doing integrated circuit design at a company called PMC Sierra, and, for a number of reasons, actually, that really was differentiating. I think for me, one of them was they had this idea that as an engineer, you should be able to do all the parts of the, the work.

So most companies really pigeonhole you into one thing. But at that company, we designed the circuits. We tested the circuits, we wrote the software, we went into the lab, we debugged the manufacturing process. And, it really let me believe that I could solve arbitrary problems, not just, becoming an expert in one thing, but you could just say, well, what’s the problem let’s solve it.

So that I think in retrospect is, was huge at the time. I don’t think I really appreciated it. And how much vision it took part on the part of the leadership there. To let us do it that way. But the other thing that was super important was I met some really great people. in fact, 20 years and four of my own startups later, I’m still working with many of the people I met at that time.

And one of the, one of my singular co-founders I, I looked, I worked it out. We’ve worked at eight different companies together. Wow. In the last 20 years. So from that same core group that I met right out of university, Just moved through time and again, so

[00:03:16] Bill Staikos: that’s really incredible. That’s not very typical at all.

That two individuals would kind of progress through their own careers with, with similar companies creating similar stories.

[00:03:27] Brad Quinton: Yeah. Yeah. It’s really been in, in fascinating and we’ve been doing quite different things. So we’ve kind of been, navigating through different kinds of technology together and, three of the four founders of OSE, I worked.

Right out of university, at that first job.

[00:03:45] Bill Staikos: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. And do you guys have different strengths that you bring to the table or is it similar to backgrounds?

I guess similar backgrounds in that we’re all engineers, but really different strengths. And that’s one of the things that’s really been worked well, you have the, get things done, heads down, write code, people, and then you have the creative visual.

[00:04:08] Brad Quinton: Like I can’t, I’m somewhat technical, but I can’t write a line of code anymore. I’m this not, I’m not patient enough to sit down and actually do that anymore. but luckily some of the founders really are so

[00:04:19] Bill Staikos: awesome. Awesome. Brad, two questions. I, I ask every founder on the show and would really just, I would value your perspective on this one is when, for singular research specifically, and perceptives, which we’re gonna talk about P perceptives as.

What was the problem you were trying to solve in the world that led you to start the company help, start this company. And then how did you choose the names for both?

[00:04:42] Brad Quinton: Cool. Well, that’s a fun story. And so I’m, I’m glad you asked that one. So OSE really came out of a, a very simple question. My young son asked me, we were actually sitting at the table and we were, we had a whole bunch of Lego blocks in front of us and he asked, well, could you build a giraffe with these pieces?

I said, well, yeah, I’m sure we have the pieces for it, but I don’t have the instructions to do that. And then, because he’s so steeped in the technology, he just said, well, why can’t the iPad? Just look at it and tell me the instructions. It just seemed so natural to him. But the funny thing was I was teaching AI at UBC AI and deep learning at the university.

So, I’m right in this field. And I said, well, why can’t it? why doesn’t this app exist already? Yeah. And so I started looking into it. Why doesn’t it work and, and what are the problems and, and why can’t the iPad understand what’s sitting on your table. and that really led directly to, singular.

And it’s why it’s one of our favorite demos to show. I mean, we can detect all kinds of objects and do all kinds of fun things, but it’s really fun to show the leg. But singular and, P percepts are not, not as exciting a story, frankly. , it’s like the search for that name that has a domain name available is fairly easy to spell.

Kind of sounds like a, a name, so less exciting.

I love the Lego story. And on the video you guys highlight the, that that use case. And that’s something that in my house we’re doing, I mean, we’re playing Legos. We talked about this when we first met, I mean, Way too many pieces of Lego in my house, probably for anyone, individual to, to manage through.

[00:06:19] Bill Staikos: And that’s something that I think is really slick. One of my favorite hobbies to do with my children and their young kids as well is to ask them what will something look like or do in the future for you? and we talk about everything from cars to TVs, to gaming consoles, like what is all this stuff gonna look like?

And the, and the answers, to some of these questions are. You kind of just turn your head as an adult and say that’s absolutely genius, you know?

[00:06:46] Brad Quinton: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And just, I always entertain my kids by trying to tell them about the world before the internet and they just can’t get it right. I’m I remember I had to make a, I had to make a request for an email address at my undergrad, at the university of Alberta and justify why I could needed an email address.

And, and they’re just like, we just can’t can’t even fathom it.

[00:07:10] Bill Staikos: Oh man. I, yeah, no, the, the phone with the 20 foot cord, like the spiraled cord is, in the kitchen. So you can go around the corner and talk privately to your friends. See your parents can’t hear you is one of my favorites. Let’s talk about now, before we could kind of get into it further for those who may be new to the topic of what we’re talking about.

Can you tell the, just really quickly in your own words, what you see as the differences between augmented reality versus virtual versus

[00:07:36] Brad Quinton: mixed. Great. Yeah, sure. And then actually it’s good to get onto that because there’s so many terms right now. Yeah. in this space’s very confusing, but technically, if you look at kind of the academic definition, mixed reality is everything from real reality, all the way to virtual reality and augmented reality is a point on that spectrum.

But practically when people talk about it, usually in the industry mixed reality and augmented reality tends to mean you are in the real world with extra little bits of virtual overlays projected. Whereas virtual reality tends to be thought of as in a completely immersive experience where your eyes are covered and everything you see is artificially generat.

So that’s the, basically the quick shorthand to think augmented and mixed means adding to the real world and virtual reality means an immersive experience. Yeah. Where the real world

[00:08:31] Bill Staikos: is gone. Yeah. So like an, so folks might recognize the Oculus, as a product out there that gives you a virtual experience,

as a, exactly the Oculus quest is a, is a good example because you’re closed off.

[00:08:43] Brad Quinton: You have a completely new world,

[00:08:47] Bill Staikos: sous. The platform, the singular research created is super slick. And, we’ll put in for our listeners, the link to the video. Oh, cool. You guys all have on your, on, we’ll put it in our show notes, link to the video on your site, but it’s, it’s a real time augmented reality or AR solution.

That’s right in, in that, there there’s a title on that video and it was just, it’s such a profound and simple question, frankly, but it’s. It asks what if AR could see, right. And today there’s a lot of technology out there that you’ve gotta train necessarily, but you’re saying like, what if it can kind of visualize the things in your house as an example, is, is, in that video, what is it about today’s AR that we’re missing?

And that conceptus brings to us though. Like what’s like the real difference there of what we might see in. There’s a couple, there’s a lot of wearables out there today ending in the past, frankly, that have been an AR type of platform, but what is different about conceptus?

[00:09:50] Brad Quinton: Yeah. what I see is that it’s all about context.

So, when you asked the question, well, what if AR could see really you’re saying, what if AR understood the context that you were in? Right. And so what if it could see what you could see. And if it could, then it could respond and then it could be proactive. And I think that’s, what’s kind of missing today in AR.

So you, as you said, there’s lots of in lots of heads up displays and they will project information, along with reality, but since they don’t understand what your reality or situation is, It’s out of context. And so a that tends to be annoying because you’re like, well, now you’re taking up my line of sight and you’re not providing value, but it’s also, I think even more profound because if we’re gonna move to something like AR we want it to do something new and something different, something that we couldn’t do before.

And so if you’re just projecting a display and a heads up display, well, you could look at your phone too. And so it’s like, yeah, it’s nice. But it’s just a nice to. But the analogy I like to make is if you think about Google maps, Google maps is an experience that’s not possible. Otherwise, when you pull out the maps app, it knows where you are in real time.

And as you move, it keeps track of you. So looking at a paper map is not like that. Looking at a digital map is not like that. It’s the GPS context that tells the mapping app where it is. So that’s an example of context. Similarly, if you can understand, for instance, the Lego on your table, then you can say, oh, the context is we want to build something with Lego.

The context is I have four, two by fours and one, one by two. So that’s the context the app can live in. And so that’s what I believe is missing. And that’s what conceptus is focused on doing is using techniques to get visual context.

[00:11:45] Bill Staikos: So, when I, if I think about it, if I can translate that into customer experience a little bit, I’m walking into a retail store, I want to go shopping and I’ve got a wearable that has sort of Theus, technology built into it.

I might be looking for products or I might say, Hey, it may know my, even my, my own preferences, let’s say and say, Hey, those bananas might be, a little. To yellow, right. As an example, or, I know that I need it, before I left the house, it, it saw that I needed more wine. So Hey, bill, pick up wine now you’re in wine, et cetera.

So really I think that context is a really, the, the point of context is super critical. Cuz as you move as a consumer, through a journey with a brand, let’s say, and they can pick up that context in real time. And provide the type of insight that you as a consumer need to make better decisions in real time.

I think that completely changes the game in terms of how you feel and how you associate and how you, how you deal with a brand. Brad, what are, what are some of the more cool use cases or like just use, see perceptive solving for? Are there any like that you personally are really excited about? I know the, the real time Lego brick assembly is one that,

[00:13:00] Brad Quinton: of course, that that’s one.

And so there’s kind of these, these two things we’ve actually, I mean, so we’ve been really talking to a lot of, of developers and we’ve seen applications from, educational to games, to industrial, to retail, to advertising. So we’ve seen very broad, uptake. in my heart, it’s the games, it’s the games and toys.

I think that’s because I go home at night and I have kids. Right. and, and AR board games, we have an AR chess demo where you could play against an opponent, but you’re using real pieces, as far as just the coolness factor that really, really speaks to.

[00:13:36] Bill Staikos: For sure. And in that video, you also have sort of the chess piece where you’ve got your pieces and then a digital player, somewhere in the world you’re playing against yeah.

Is a layover of their pieces. And they’re moving, which is a, I mean that really, I like the sort of the, the learning and development component. Right. Because there, you can really be training individuals how to use machinery or whatever that is. I mean, the, the employee experience component of. Has really incredible and far reaching potential.

So do you see a, do you envision if, or like maybe a better question is when do you see that really, that technology really coming at us and being available at scale?

[00:14:19] Brad Quinton: Well, I think it’s coming quick. and I think it’s coming quicker than people expect because what’s been happening is the big mobile phone companies, the apples, the Samsungs and Googles have been pushing a lot of AR into mobile phones and tablets, quite quietly, getting them ready, getting them, them ready, building the foundations.

And so we are actually at a point where there is literally billions of people. In the world that have access to AR technology, they just don’t really know it yet. And I think it’s going to be, as we cross the line and start doing some of these AI tasks that provide context and give you that application, you couldn’t do otherwise that there’s gonna be a whole big, uptake there.

And I think once you have people. Enjoying and experiencing AR on a mobile phone, there’ll be a dramatic push towards glasses or other hands-free devices. But I think it’s, it’s going to be that chicken and egg problem where people are like, oh, this is a really fun chess app, but I’m really tired of holding this phone so then when they come up with the glasses, you’re like, oh geez, that would be much better.

If I could put on the glasses. , but I do think it’s possible that it goes very fast because you have that deployed base in the mobile market right now that could, you could have that killer app. I mean, Pokemon go was an interesting example where there was capabilities and it deployed really, really, really, really quickly now in the end, it wasn’t a must have app.

And so it faded, but if it is a Google maps equivalent where it. Something that everyone needs every day that you experience through AR that would be very, very quick deployment.

[00:16:01] Bill Staikos: Yeah, no, I mean, magic leap has a set of glasses. Now. I think it’s V2 of the glasses, which is pretty interesting, obviously apple rumor to, to have glasses and others are looking to create a wearable.

Similarly, I wonder though, if the, if the experience on the phone first and then to a wearable. If they’re saying, Hey, we’re gonna create the wearable just for the early adopters that will then hopefully start to push that, that, that diffusion adoption curve really, really quickly.

yeah, I think so. I mean, that’s a good way to interpret the strategy.

[00:16:33] Brad Quinton: You, if you look at some of the things, for instance, the iPads and high-end iPhones all have LIDAR, well, what other application is there for LIDAR other than, than AR right? I mean, to, to use the LIDAR, you have to hold the device like this that’s so I think there is a lot of. Building of these things in these mobile devices to gain that foothold, because I do think there’s an important thing in AR there is a problem of motivating people to buy and put on these glasses.

Mm-hmm , they’re not gonna be completely lightweight. They’re not gonna be super cheap. And so if you don’t build that application that pulls them through. you may not get there. So I, I think there’s an awareness of that amongst the, the major tech

[00:17:20] Bill Staikos: players. Yeah. I mean, even maybe thinking about 5g tech as it is, may not even be the right lo I mean, we might have to wait for a six G like, in, at around 2030 estimate to come out before we can really see.

Some really interesting stuff coming out, using AR as well and that on its end level outside of your phone, which is gonna be bigger, has bigger processors.

it’s, that’s bigger. But although, yeah, I mean, I think the it’s, it is interesting. Cause I think that those are the kind of things that once there’s demand, people will find the solutions.

[00:17:49] Brad Quinton: Right. So right now people say, well, I need more this, more that, but if there was a bunch of people lined up, their credit card to buy these glasses, they would solve those problems, right?

[00:18:03] Bill Staikos: Yeah. Hopefully it doesn’t get the brand of, of Google’s. I won’t say it on air, cuz I’m not supposed to curse.

Some countries will completely block the show if I curse on air. Okay. But, the, the brand that Google class has got,for wearers of those, that wasn’t fair, but also, I think that there’s definitely a curve there to be met for sure.

[00:18:19] Brad Quinton: Oh yeah. I mean, definitely. Although I think it’d be interesting to see what would happen if those were launched.

Now. I think the tolerance to being videotaped has changed dramatically in that

[00:18:27] Bill Staikos: timeframe. For sure. For sure. I’m so if we think about sort of this tech and the evolution a lot right now, Brad is a, is a focus on the metaverse. So purely digital immersive experience, digitally immersive experiences. Do you think that.

As, as consumers, I’m just, just your personal opinion here. When we have those wearables, they are at a cost that nearly everybody or most people can afford, et cetera. Do you think that people will be able to jump back and forth between, AR VR very simply, and there will be different things in our lives that we’re gonna use each four?

Or how, how do you see that kinda playing.

[00:19:09] Brad Quinton: Yeah, that’s a great question. And I, I think actually what, where I, I foresee this going is that people that AR is the default and VR is the special case. Mm-hmm in general, people are more comfortable in the real world. And so I suspect what will happen was though be degrees of immersion, degrees of, essentially overlays.

That range between, the tiny little thing in the top that tells you the time and the a text message to, virtual chess to, having a painting on your wall. That’s an NFT all the way to, I want try a roller coaster ride and be completely immersive. And I think it’s going to be continuous, but I think the default position is going to be the AR case.

And I think the reason is because it’s just not that comfortable to be in an immersive space all the time. Yeah. All the time. And what happens is that you still need to maintain a double awareness. So, so when you’re in an immersive space, you have to be aware of your physical surroundings because that’s what people have to do.

So then you, it’s an uncomfortable thing where you are in a pretend space and a physical space, and your mind has to work on them simultaneously. All the. And so in general, I think people won’t stay in that space. we’ve played a little bit here. Like we have HoloLens HoloLens too, and, you can wear HoloLens too all day.

No problem. Right. It, it, cuz you can mostly just see what’s around you and there’s like some things projected here. but you can’t say the same thing about the immersive totally immersive things saying all day in that would be hard to fat. Yeah.

[00:20:46] Bill Staikos: Perhaps, maybe in a couple thousand years, our brains will evolve and.

We’ll be fairly comfortable in, in fully digital or Immers, digitally immersive experiences.

[00:20:56] Brad Quinton: Maybe I actually think there’s actually a, a, a potential middle ground and that, and that’s where you have immersive experiences that have anchors in the real world. That would almost be like the star Trek. Right.

So if you imagine you’re completely virtual, but the virtual world has been cued off of physical reality. Maybe you can have enough alignment between the, the virtual and physical that your body can relax enough to say it’s okay. But I don’t know. That’s

[00:21:23] Bill Staikos: a, that’s a long way. That’s a far away off perhaps.

Hey Brad. I’m I’m I love your view on this. I always grapple with the question of whether consumer demand drives technology and technology change, or if technology drives consumer demand. So consumers drive, you think? So? Is that okay?

[00:21:45] Brad Quinton: Absolutely. I, I think so. I think, in the end, technology that, that succeed, succeed because consumers want them.

And so, although the, on the technology edge, I think there’s this interplay where you have to make consumers aware of what’s out there in the end. People don’t want it, it won’t happen. And I, I think there’s lots of examples of failures where technologists say, well, it’s obviously the next step or it’s, it was really hard to design or this is really clever, but consumers don’t care about that.

They really don’t care how hard it was. if you think about how much work goes into your smartphone, and then you complain, you want it $10 cheap. there’s like thousands and thousands of people who work endless nights to get that smartphone to work. Yeah. So I think consumers drive it.

and,

[00:22:35] Bill Staikos: yeah, I, I guess Google glass would be one of a great example of consumer demand. Just not being there, not ready.

[00:22:42] Brad Quinton: It’s a great example. And the, the, I can see all the engineers who are on that project saying, well, this is how it has to be, so AR is the future. Yeah. And this is what we can build.

and so that’s the product, but you can’t, if you think about it that way, I think you end up with these fairly large failures sometimes where people are just not ready. They don’t see it providing value. I always try to visualize it as everyone’s always saying, is that worth it? Does it provide enough value versus the cost?

Even the cost could be in dollars, but the cost is sometimes the cost of wearing a funny looking. Glasses or costs that people know that you’re filming them. Like, so the consumers always making that, that choice. And I don’t think you can escape that

[00:23:27] Bill Staikos: you mentioned before that people are, I just wanna go back to something.

Just people are less concerned maybe with privacy now as they may have been in the past. Yeah. Do you think it’s because people are just. I realize that everything I do is being tracked now. So on some level I’m, I’m finally good with it, but it’s really more about data security versus privacy now. Or how do you think that, or why do you think that evolution has, has, has come about?

Yeah,

[00:23:56] Brad Quinton: I mean, I think that’s a great question and, and I don’t think people have necessarily said, well, we don’t need privacy. I think people’s understanding of what they want has changed. and so I think people really, really want to know what data they’re sharing and control. And so one of the, the things we worked on very carefully Inus is that everything we do is on the device.

So when we use the video to find the Lego, then we drop the video and it never goes up anywhere. It’s never stored. It’s gone. Because I think people would always recoil at whatever they’re seeing, going up into the cloud. Yeah. Interestingly, I think people have realized that when they’re out in public, other people see them and they could be on a video camera and that’s a public space and they’ve relaxed about that.

And, and really started to delineate what it is I think is private. And what I think is public in a more sophisticated.

[00:24:59] Bill Staikos: I do wonder as, as, as this technology takes this shape more and more particularly in an AR or even digitally immersive environments, what is the technology that’s gonna allow us to take more control over our own data and be able to select or switch on and off who gets it, who sees it, how much and what specifically they get to see.

Do you think we’re gonna have to do that even for AR whereby. or is it you’re saying, Hey, look, we’re just gonna just inherently the software or could the software and hardware could be different. Your software is platform agnostic. If memory serves me. Right, right. Like you like it, anybody can kind of put it into their product or they’re wearable, but that product can still say, Hey, we’re still gonna send it to our cloud cuz we wanna learn.

sure. Yeah. Do you think they’re gonna have to drop that and those, the software and the product are gonna have to have the same kind of. Or deliver the same level of privacy or can there still be a disconnect there and people will have to know, obviously

[00:25:58] Brad Quinton: many, many questions together. Try to put it all back that’s okay.

So, so I think the overall answer is that the privacy and the ability to provide privacy has to be a fundamental mm-hmm . So too often it was like, well, let’s let the technology. Go where it goes. And then we’ll try to overlay privacy on top of that. And so the technologist said, no, the only way to, to process is in the cloud, cuz we need a big GPU.

So they put it in the cloud and then try to patch over the, the things. And so I think that the, the solution is in the whole AR VR metaverse is to start from scratch and put, would this give users the privacy control they want as the top item and. If you have to say, I’m gonna detect less Lego, I’m gonna be less real time.

I’m gonna, you just say, well, that’s it. That’s I have to live in this envelope. The other question is, would you allow users to share or, can, does it always have to be private? And I think you don’t always have to be private. I think it just, it does depend on the use case. And the use case we talk about a lot is, at some point you may need extra information about something you’re.

So, what you would like to have is that you’re processing the stream locally and privately, but then maybe it prompts you and says, Hey, do you want me to look this up? Should I take a snapshot of this, widget and, and send it up to the cloud for further analysis. And I think people will be very comfortable with that, where it says, Hey, I’m gonna do this, or you okay with it?

Yeah. so

[00:27:35] Bill Staikos: it’s happening in the background today, right? How many times have you talked about something and then the next Google ad on your phone or on Amazon? You see something that, or, or, or a story in Google news? Oh, absolutely. Right.

[00:27:46] Brad Quinton: And I think that’s the mistake there. I mean, I think you, and the example of cookies is a good example where the technology didn’t fundamentally think about privacy and then it’s, didn’t tried to be overlay and it’s not been very successful.

[00:28:02] Bill Staikos: Brad, I I’ve got a gazillion questions and coming at it from a purely experience, experience management or experiential perspective, this technology can really. Not only enhance, but going back to your concept of context and can you start to even create next best journeys for consumers in that context through AR is really a fascinating thing for me.

And, working with the company I do is how do you collect these signals to make the experience better in real time for that a consumer and get them down a path that you would hope they would wanna get down to. It got really, really significant. Very significant sort of things to think about, especially if you’re, or even if you’re like a leader, like a, a customer experience leader at a bank, right.

And folks are leveraging AR in their day to day. what does that look like in a branch as an example, and how do you use AR even in the branch to enhance the experience, for consumers a lot to think. I’ve got two final questions for you. I know you’re a busy guy. It’s a Friday afternoon. Where, what business leaders do you look up to?

Like who are the folks that, are the posters on the wall for you from a business perspective?

[00:29:12] Brad Quinton: That’s another one of those questions that I hadn’t really thought about until you. Until I was like, oh, maybe he’ll ask that. So, you know what it’s tempting to say, oh, Steve jobs or whatever.

But, if I think about it, honestly, the people who I admire are the local and small business people who have consistent businesses over a long time, that restaurant that’s always got great service and, and, because what they’ve done is they’ve understood what their customer wants and how they can deliver it consistently.

And I think that’s really, very admirable. Business quality to understand what your customer wants and figure out how you can deliver it.

[00:29:47] Bill Staikos: So awesome. I love that answer. I love that answer. and one final question, where do you go for inspiration? Clearly, your kids are one source,

[00:29:55] Brad Quinton: kids and family, but team.

I mean, as I, I mentioned before, we have a very special case where I have people I’ve worked with for a very long time and we’re really, really, really have this deep level of. Almost all of our inspiration has come from us admitting, I don’t understand that. Why does that work? Why doesn’t that work?

Why did we get that answer? and being really open about that has really led to a lot of, of inspiration.

[00:30:19] Bill Staikos: Very cool. well, we’re gonna leave it at that. There’s so much more to explore here. I I’d love to have you on another time. At some point as you guys go further down the down the path with PSUs.

seeing its successes and the use cases that you guys will put into place. I really do think that I think about the next kind of 20 and 30 years, a lot just as kind of part of my role, but always with an experience Ben, but I’m, this is a space in addition to the, purely metaverse type stuff, this is a space that I just, I’m always just reading about and learning more about and trying to really understand the impact on business and experience management generally.

[00:30:55] Bill Staikos: I really appreciate you coming on a show. This has really been a fascinating conversation. I know a listener’s gonna love this one. All right. Well, thanks so much. All right, everybody. Another great show. We’re out. Talk to you soon, everyone. Thanks for

[00:31:05] Brad Quinton: listening to be customer led with bill Staco. We are grateful to our audience for the gift of their time.

Be sure to visit us@becustomerled.com for more episodes. Leave us feedback on how we’re doing or tell us what you wanna hear more about until next time. We’re.