Luis Angel-Lalanne on How Customer Listening is Evolving

Luis Angel-Lalanne on How Customer Listening is Evolving

[00:00:00] Luis Angel-Lalanne: Welcome to be customer lad, where we’ll explore how leading experts in customer and employee experience are navigating organizations through their own journey to be customer led and the accidents and behaviors of lawyers and businesses exhibit to get there. And now your host of Bill’s staikos.

[00:00:33] Bill Staikos: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another week of be customer led. I’m your host bill. Staikos another special guest for you all today. Louis angel Alon is vice president for customer voice in the global services group at American express. And this is a really important conversation for us and Louis. Thank you so much for coming on the show, but before we just get to you for.

[00:00:57] So many teams out there are struggling with the topics that we’re going to cover today. And you guys have done an amazing job at American express. And I know that, and I feel that as a customer. so I’m really excited to have you Lewis. Thanks for coming on. Be customer led.

[00:01:11] Luis Angel-Lalanne: No, thanks very much.

[00:01:13] Bill Staikos: So, we always start off, I’ll start off each show Louis with asking our guests, just to talk about your journey.

[00:01:19] And you’ve got a really interesting one because you don’t have the traditional background of someone who might be in this space. And I’m curious, just even understand like how. That history, that professional history of yours also kind of impacted your, your success, in the, in this role at American express to, so

[00:01:37] Luis Angel-Lalanne: I started as an engineer, coming out of grad school.

[00:01:39] I was a Naval architect, so I was a yacht designer. And I did that for a few years. really liked the engineering. I liked the, the aesthetic part of yacht design. it had to be beautiful at the end of the day, but I realized I wanted to be in an industry that was more dynamic, more competitive.

[00:01:54] And so I went to business school and at business school, I learned about American express and risk management. They came to recruit on campus. I went to the presentation and I thought it was a really good fit of the quantitative work. I really enjoyed from being an intern. And there’s the business side and what I was enjoying about business school.

[00:02:12] So I joined risk management at American express and spent 10 years there in multiple different disciplines for multiple different customer sets. But I knew from literally day one, when I joined Amex, I was always looking or wanting to create kind of a well-rounded general management career for myself.

[00:02:28] And so I didn’t envision, becoming a chief credit officer. I wanted to become more of a general manager. So. After 10 years and risk, I realized it’s time to go experience some of these other world-class parts of American express. And I’d gotten to know a leader in the servicing organization and really wanted to work for her.

[00:02:45] And when an opportunity came up to go build and run their compliance monitoring program, I jumped at it and it was surprisingly a good fit coming out of risk management because we were building the program. So they. An analytics background, someone who could help figure out, like, what are we going to measure?

[00:03:01] How are we going to measure it? How are we going to report? so it was, it was really building this program from scratch and, and my quantitative analytics background is what got me there in that role though, I learned. Being part of a global team. It was my first time in servicing per first time in a global organization.

[00:03:17] And I really enjoyed that and I really enjoyed the culture in servicing and that, that culture of needing to solve for the customer immediately. And after building the compliance monitoring program and running that for a couple of years, the opportunity came. To move to this role for customer experience, voice of customer complaint reporting, which felt like a terrific transition of, I get to keep the analytics that I like, and I’ve enjoyed wanting to get I’ve enjoyed the customer and wanting to get closer to the customer.

[00:03:41] And so this was a nice, easy transition. So I’ve been in this role for about six years now. That’s

[00:03:47] Bill Staikos: awesome. And I love the risk management background. I was actually having a conversation with someone this morning about how do you get the voice of the customer into the boardroom? And we talked about sort of what are boarder important topics of boards, right?

[00:03:58] Risk management being one of them, obviously, and being able to connect the voice of the customer into risk management topics. And how do you solve for those critical really critical? So, so Louis, want to start by first talking about how much. You’ve seen the customer listening space change over your six years.

[00:04:17] whether that’s technology, whether that’s business focus, whatever that is like. I’m just curious to hear about your perspective because part of this, this conversation is about the evolving nature of customer listening. And I want to talk about the future a little bit about as well, but just let’s take a quick look, over the last couple of years and just kind of get your perspective on the change.

[00:04:34] Luis Angel-Lalanne: Yeah. One thing. I’ve really enjoyed about this space is the fact that it’s, it’s evolving, and, and we’re, we’re getting created as we go. So I stepped into a role that had existed since probably 2007 is when we first started measuring customer satisfaction and, and putting it in the accountability of our front lines.

[00:04:53] So I moved into a role that was well-established in servicing. So I didn’t need to go fight for attention. I didn’t need to go prove myself and in the value of what we bring that was wellness. And accepted in R in American express that said the program had been focused on expansion and covering all the different aspects of the servicing experience across 26 markets.

[00:05:15] And so when I joined, it really felt like there’s a, we had an opportunity to go see how the world is evolving around us, because we were basically done with our rollout, but we had been with the same. Technology since the beginning, so we started our program before there were standard platforms that could create real dashboard.

[00:05:33] So as I came in, I learned in talking to different vendor partners who came knocking, I learned about the different capabilities that were out there and we thought, Hey, this is a great chance to. To explore new technologies. And so that kind of kicked off a whole revisiting and transformation of the entire program.

[00:05:49] So we looked at new technology. We said, Hey, related to that, our survey itself has been pretty consistent for years. Let’s update that in terms of look and feel in terms of the questions, and then look at our internal technology and what are we using to trigger the survey and let’s make that more dynamic and move it from a mainframe process into our big data lake.

[00:06:06] So we can be, like I said, more dynamic and respond faster. It really moved from a kind of a process, like a very mechanical process about getting it out the door well into a much more dynamic process, really focused on listening carefully and responding to that listening. So it’s been an exciting time, I think, to be in customer experience, as you think through the, the move from kind of a fixed rigid survey program to a more dynamic listening program.

[00:06:32] And also the, the focus, one of my first conferences I saw Fred Reichheld speak. About, really pulling an operational data. Like it’s not just the survey. So I think that explosion of, of pulling all that data around us has also helped inform what we do at American express and how we think about the evolution of the program with the focus.

[00:06:51] I said, continuing to be on

[00:06:52] Bill Staikos: listening. I love that you’re bringing in sort of the operational data. I want to touch on that. And just a little bit, there, there are customer signals everywhere and so many organizations. Just use a survey, right. But that’s eight or 10 or 12 or 15% of the population of your customers that are talking to you.

[00:07:07] Right. And by bringing data by identifying other signals that are out there, you really do get a much more fulsome picture of who your customer is and what they think about your brand and the, and the, and the product and the service that they get every day. What is your general philosophy and approach?

[00:07:25] The customer listening at American express, if you can share it. Yeah. So,

[00:07:29] the fairway continues to be our anchor point, and in terms of what we, what we do with our customer feedback and the importance of that anchor point is that we, that becomes metrics and goals across for our frontline folks all the way up to the top of the servicing organization.

[00:07:46] Luis Angel-Lalanne: So we’ve got this nice consistency. Customer experience being a critical measure, for everyone’s success in the organization. And so that becomes kind of the core foundation of, of what we do with it. We, and with that consistency from top to bottom, we’ve also had, like I said, at the beginning, that consistency over time.

[00:08:04] So it’s not, no one’s ever going to accuse us of, of it being a flavor of the month, et cetera. The other benefit to all of this is we’ve got. our colleagues are really experienced in it as well. So they’re able to self-service and in use dashboards to really understand what they’re doing. We’re able to focus on deeper analytics.

[00:08:26] So we’ve also created this experience where our teams can use the tools we’ve given them to understand their performance and take ownership of their performance. So it’s not that they’re all sitting around wondering. Oh, I wonder what’s going on with my performance. I wonder what’s driving. Like they can go and take a look.

[00:08:43] And then my team comes in with a more advanced analytics to really get at root cause driver analysis, things like that to really make sure that we’re focused on responding to and changing processes for the customer. And probably the third thing that’s been really important to us and kind of our philosophy.

[00:09:00] And it’s really got driven home by the changes that we all went through in COVID and kind of that. The way our customers needs changed really quickly, more quickly than any time in recent history, it really became a more pure focus on just listening. So what are some of the things I started doing, over the last few years with sending weekly files of customer verbatim, and it first started with a COVID focus because that was what everyone was interested in.

[00:09:22] And then we just morphed that into kind of a random file of customer listening. We’d literally take a file from a day and say, here’s. On this day, two days ago, three days ago and send it out to get people focused on listening. And, and how are we responding to customers regardless of scores, regardless of how it impacts our metrics.

[00:09:38] So, I think our philosophy has been this importance of this core of the survey and listening survey and the score and how that, how that accountability runs top to bottom, but then expanding to also embracing, just listening, regardless of

[00:09:52] Bill Staikos: score. I love that one to focus on your second point for a second.

[00:09:56] self-serve particularly with the proliferation of technology and these big platforms that has been a much more important part of the overall let’s say ecosystem, right. and an organization and the ability to, close the loop. you get feedback, people on the front lines are closing the loop with customers, et cetera.

[00:10:15] Bill Staikos: How do you find the balance? Like, what do you think is the right balance and what do you have. more importantly, just, what’s your advice for listeners who are trying to. Come out of this, I’m pushing out reports and there are still really big organizations that I talk to. They’re like, they’re still in this mode of, I create the reporting.

[00:10:33] I send it every month and then, and someone looks at it. Right. But I love how you’re bringing these tools out to the business so they can self-serve. But like, how do you what’s that right balance for you? And if you haven’t, if you haven’t found it, that’s fine too. But like, what’s your advice there?

[00:10:46] Luis Angel-Lalanne: So this has been a really. Kind of rewarding transition. I’ve seen in my team since I took, I moved into this role six years ago when I moved into it, we had, we did a lot of reporting and that was a big focus, was getting the monthly reports out, but then moving to a new platform, a modern dynamic real-time platform, we were able to start to slowly shift that focus away from we produce reports.

[00:11:08] So we produce the insights. And so that’s our vision with that. Migration has been, let’s give our folks in the front lines, the tools to do that level one. Now. So, we’ve created dashboards and that have key segmentation variables available to them. customer segment, call center, location, product country five or six or seven different key measures.

[00:11:31] And then we went through and we. Put some special focus on training, kind of the analytics folks that support the operations leaders. so an operations leader might have a small analytics team of center head. the woman who runs the center head in Mexico, she’ll have an analysts, a few analytics people.

[00:11:46] So we focused on that, making sure that they understood how to use the dashboards. We created creating custom dashboards for them if needed so they can create the views that their leaders wanted. Was able to, oh, that really allowed us to move away from reporting. So now we do very, very, very little reporting.

[00:12:01] I mean, we still probably have a handful that we send out, but most of it really is now focused on deeper analytics and insights and things you can’t level with that can’t answer, I should say with that level one, dashboarding filtering, et cetera. And so I really feel good about that. And it makes also the job more rewarding for my team.

[00:12:18] they’re not proofing reports anymore. They’re doing insights, they’re doing more complex, more impactful analysis, which is definitely more exciting.

[00:12:26] Bill Staikos: And that must, well, obviously it, or maybe it did. I don’t know, but, the skillset of the team must change and evolve as well as part of that. Right.

[00:12:33] you don’t need sort of people developing reports with that skill set it’s to your point, it’s a much different sort of analytical capability that and toolkit that folks need to bring to the team. That’s always a scary transition for, for a lot of teams, right. When they’re, when they’re going to that kind of thing.

[00:12:47] Bill Staikos: So kudos to you and the team for having the courage to do that. and the, and the, and the foresight to do that. Cause I think that’s largely what a lot of this work is going. one of the, one of the things that. I wanted to talk to you about as well as when you think about that, not just, the stuff that you’re pushing out to the business, through these dashboards, but even the work that you’re doing as a team, how do you focus on actionability?

[00:13:09] Right? That actionability is always like the big thing. I, being in the role myself for many years, it was, you get some stuff and sometimes customers, like, how would you rate this site? 10? Why did you rate it that way? I liked it. Okay. That’s not really actual feedback. So like, how do you think about.

[00:13:24] Actionability. and maybe in the analysis that you and the team are doing and delivering back to the business.

[00:13:30] Luis Angel-Lalanne: Yeah. That’s, I mean, I think it’s still one of the fundamental challenges of, of those of us in this role. And I talked to my team about, sometimes I feel like we have a curse in our, our curses, everything we share is interesting.

[00:13:42] You’ll go with an analysis, you’ll take it to a partner and say, oh, here’s what we found about the part of the business you run. Here’s the opportunities here’s, what’s working with. And everyone will love it. You’ll walk out of that meeting and you’ll think, wow, we really nailed it. no one gave us remotely bad feedback.

[00:13:55] They were all engaged ask questions. And then you check in a few weeks later and say, what have you done with it? And they’ll say nothing. So I’d say that’s our curse. Like you don’t get that feedback instantly. So I was like, no, this really missed the mark. Like no, every time we go, we’re bringing interesting information.

[00:14:08] So we definitely recognize that the gold standard is. A partner, who’s going to take your information and go change their business practice because of it. And that’s what we’re aiming for. So some of the ways we deal with that are the first thing we’ll do is we’ll partner. Our colleagues, who’ve demonstrated a willingness and a desire to drive change using our information.

[00:14:30] So we’d actually, don’t support every operations leader exactly the same way. Some of them just want reporting and they’ll get the reporting and then they’ve got the filtering so they can use that to manage their people. Some of our partners have maybe more of a mandate to drive change. And so we’ll give them a little bit more support.

[00:14:47] And so that was. It took us a little while to realize that it’s okay to not give everyone the same support because they don’t, they don’t all need the same thing from us. And so I think it, it fits pretty well for, for the folks who are doing a great job. They just need to understand and tweak on the margins.

[00:15:03] Great dashboards are going to do that for folks who really are motivated to, or need to drive change. That’s when they’re going to get more attention from us. So that’s one of the ways we use. Managed to focus on driving impact is, is the recognition that we don’t have to give everyone the same exact level of support.

[00:15:21] And then the other is a real focus on my team at having that seat at the table, are we pulled in when our business partners have a question, which is, which is nice or do what we do. We always have a seat at the table. So we’re actively listening for what are they talking? And we can make connections for them and recommend things.

[00:15:39] And again, that’s another one that’s really hard to achieve. It takes a lot of time. and we, again, we don’t try with everyone, but with our, our partners who are. Who need to drive change? We do aspire to get a seat at the table to be part of their extended leadership team. So we’re there on the weekly updates and the weekly meetings.

[00:15:55] so those are a couple of things we do, they’re not necessarily easy to do. They’re not always consistent, but that’s the way we try to think of that. Focus on driving impact and not just, proofing reports that everyone thinks are interesting. And then does nothing

[00:16:07] Bill Staikos: with boy I’ve been in one of those or one or two of those situations before my career.

[00:16:11] Never, never an easy time for the. Louis. I want to talk to you about journey analytics and journey orchestration. It’s kind of like all the rage these days, and everyone’s got, right. It’s the silver bullet for CX and et cetera. How are you thinking about the impact of these type of capabilities for American express?

[00:16:28] what impact do you actually see perhaps even, these new, these new technologies bringing, to an organization like yours? Yeah,

[00:16:35] Luis Angel-Lalanne: so we’re, I feel like we’re where a lot of companies are in terms of expanding our view of journey. The way I think about it. Our survey historically has been a transactional survey.

[00:16:46] So you, you call up American express the next morning. You’re going to have an email in your inbox asking about that. And what we’ve done over the years is starting with that kind of, that, that very discreet interaction. It starts to expand our, our kind of horizon around that. So start to go a little bit further around the journey around the star.

[00:17:03] what happened before that interaction? What happened after, and then look at a ring that goes even wider than look at a ring that goes even wider. So. I think we’re evolving from transaction out to journey almost, almost like, ring by ring further and further out. And so that’s the way we’ve been thinking about it.

[00:17:19] Luis Angel-Lalanne: So it’s, it’s allowed us to use a lot of our internal data to start to understand and make the connections of what journey is a customer on. And I think we’re trying now to explore different technologies, just like a lot of other companies to understand. How can we bring in that journey orchestration?

[00:17:34] How do we understand when a customer might be stuck at a certain point of a journey? So I don’t know if we’ve cracked the code on that yet, but I feel good about this, this evolution of that we’ve been on for a few years of starting with that kernel of the transaction and thinking more and more broadly about the journey as, as time goes on.

[00:17:51] And then also understanding that not everything we do is a journey. sometimes it’s a one phone call journey, some customer calls with a question, we answered the question. Great. so at that point, in that case, our transaction survey is spot on. but then others like dispute, if you called it a few charges, that could be.

[00:18:06] Done on the phone, but it could take weeks of back and forth with merchants and getting more information, and that’s a survey that we recently, revised to rep to better capture what happens at the beginning of that experience and at the end. And so that’s one that we have put more attention into recently, so we’re still evolving.

[00:18:24] and it really starts, like I said, with that kernel of the transaction and then expanding out to take a broader and broader view.

[00:18:31] Bill Staikos: I love that, you’re it. You’re taking your time almost, right. At least that’s what I’m hearing. So I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but, because this, this, I mean, the capability is super powerful, and it can have a profound impact on your customers as well as your business.

[00:18:43] So, very, very smart to kind of really think about, and, and I also love your point around not everything is a journey. I think that sometimes. Companies over index on CA can over-index I should say, on that and try and create everything as a journey, when it doesn’t necessarily need to be so love that you said that, can we focus on the future just for, for a couple of minutes and where do you see whether that’s listening or, or just, the even broader CX, if, if you’ve been thinking about it, where do you see this space evolve?

[00:19:13] Over the next 2, 3, 4, 5 years. And maybe that’s technology, maybe that’s different ways of accessing, the customer’s voice, accessing different signals. I’m curious just to get your perspective because, and this is where I learned to as a, as a, as a leader in this space, and I love how people are tackling the same problem in different ways.

[00:19:32] So, curious to hear your

[00:19:33] Luis Angel-Lalanne: perspective on that. The, what I see for the next few years is a couple, like a combination. Some big steps and then just a lot of continued evolution. one of the big steps we’re working on right now at American express is rolling out a modeled customer sentiment, so using the actual customer’s voice from the phone call, using the transcript from the words and the tone and metadata, like length of the call, crosstalk, dead airtime, and modeling that against the survey responses.

[00:20:00] We’ve built a center. and obviously that, so many benefits, so now we can scale and get a score on every single phone call. and I think that’s something we’re in the midst of rolling out now to our frontline to ideally replace the incentive, replace the survey in the frontline incentive with the model sentiment.

[00:20:18] And this is obviously a big step for us. We’ve been, like I said, it’s been since 2007 that we’ve had the. Output in our frontline incentive, and now we want to move to a model score. So we’re going to go really fully and carefully, as you would imagine, across thousands of care professionals. But the idea is start to, sensitize them to this model and we’ve been sharing it and the feedback has been, so I want to say, I keep wanting to say surprisingly positive.

[00:20:39] Not that I don’t believe in the model. but I was certainly concerned about the reception of, of kind of a black box model, but the, the benefit we have is. It correlates it highly correlates to the survey. And when it doesn’t correlate to the survey, 90% of the time, we’d rather hold people accountable for the model, you know?

[00:20:57] Cause the survey picks up things that happen outside of the phone call or maybe your perception of the brand, which is valuable to us in process improvement, but maybe not necessarily valuable for holding a frontline person’s account accountable. And then. So the reception has been pretty, pretty positive so far from, from our front lines all the way up to leadership in the frontline that this population score is going to be a more effective measure of performance for our frontline.

[00:21:22] And then I think this also becomes a tool that’s going to evolve over time. we’ve already started looking at. Getting more granular within our sentiment score, looking at how the sentiment change over the course of the call and at what points does it track, transition the most? So now we can give very specific feedback to say like, oh, right here is where the sentiment went from positive to negative or negative to positive.

[00:21:45] So I think what started as a way to get a better frontline metric is going to turn into hopefully. Or a whole structure that allows us to do much more detailed, coaching at scale. So I think that’s going to be a big one and I think. Around that as technology gets better, it’s going to allow us to get more granular, even with our regular insights, as we start to pull more and more data into our big data environment as omni-channel gets better and better.

[00:22:11] I mean, I know we’ve been talking about omni-channel for years, but yeah. it’s continuing like the actual ability to understand where someone sits in a journey and have all the data connect and talk to each other that continues to get better every year. So I think our ability to do journey analytics.

[00:22:24] Is going to get better through our own experience and just through the data and technology around us getting better. So I see reliance on it, on the survey, continuing, I don’t see it going to zero, but I do see us getting to a point in the future where we’re going to be smarter about when do we survey, why do we need to survey?

[00:22:41] Because we’re going to have tools like sentiment and much better Omni channel data to really understand the experience the customer had. So I think, like I said, I think survey sticks around. I think it’s going to be important for us, but smaller volumes of survey, less of a burden on customers, but the continued focus on that customer voice, which I’m excited about.

[00:22:59] Bill Staikos: So there’s a lot of just sort of clickbait articles out there, right? Like the, the depth of the survey and the survey is going away and the whole thing I agree. Where do you maybe see, I’m just curious, just to hear your, your thoughts, where do you kind of see it, maybe sticking around or having, having a place in all this?

[00:23:16] Luis Angel-Lalanne: I feel like idiot of journey surveys. really asking the customer at the end of this experience, what did you walk away with? how did you, how do you feel, did you feel the, the, the overall experience went well? Didn’t go, well, eventually we’re going to get to a point where we can model that pretty closely when we understand what are the peak emotions, emotion at the end of the journey.

[00:23:38] I just think with processes, continually evolving products, continually evolving. I think we’ll be able to model transactions better than we’ll be able to model journeys. So I think journey surveys are going to continue and I still want to find a way to get that customer voice and that feedback, how did this experience land on them and what do they have to tell us?

[00:23:58] I think we might be able to model a score, but we’re not gonna be able to model feedback. So I’m still looking forward to a future of journey surveys. Again, hopefully not as many as we need today, but still having them and product experience overall product NPS relationships start surveys as well.

[00:24:14] Luis Angel-Lalanne: Cause we might be able to model, like I said, the score, but I don’t think we’re gonna, I think, I think we’re pretty far away from me. The feedback that we’ll actually get from customers,

[00:24:22] Bill Staikos: for sure. really interesting. Louis, I’ve got two more questions for you. They’re a little, they’re not related to your work or the work that we do from a broader customer perspective.

[00:24:31] who are the leaders you admire in this space most and why?

[00:24:35] Luis Angel-Lalanne: So I, I love this question. And part of it is because I still find such joy in, in the CX community. at my previous role, like I mentioned, was compliance monitoring. There was no external community from that. occasionally we’d have a consultant come in and I’d sit down with them and talk about what my program was doing at the end of it.

[00:24:54] I’d always walk away thinking. I think they learned more than I did, through that. but in the CX space, The community. I love the interactions with peers, with experts, because the nice thing about what we’re doing in this space is we’re competing on customer experience, but we’re not competing on customer experience programs, like, so it, it makes it.

[00:25:14] Safe place to share and talk to competitors and peers. So it’s, I really enjoy that piece of it. So I was kind of a long preamble, but it’s, it’s definitely something I wanted to say. Cause it, it it’s, I think it’s really rewarding to be in this space, but in terms of like individuals, I think of like the researchers, they’re always the ones who inspire me, they’re bringing.

[00:25:32] First principles to really understand what’s going on around us. They’re giving us tools to help solve our problems. I think of like max Maxie, Schmidt, Subramanian at Forester, she’s one of the people, my favorite thing to say about maxi is you walk away from every conversation with her.

[00:25:47] And, that’s, it’s really hard to say about a lot of people. I think she’s, she’s just fantastic. always makes me better. And then I think of, of advisers I’ve had, so Adele phage, Rudolph ski, Nancy Vega, these are folks who have been there for me, listening to my challenges, listened to my problems, help connect me with, with research, help connect me with, with peers.

[00:26:08] and again, helped me feel. Kind of like fulfilled in this industry that we’re in and, they’ve always been there for me. So I really appreciate that. Like the intelligence with the. the listening and, and like being able to connect things, which, which is just fantastic. so yeah, lots of really good people in this space and it’s, it’s definitely energizing

[00:26:27] Bill Staikos: for sure.

[00:26:27] I actually was, was on LinkedIn early this morning with someone actually who’s new to this space, with a large pharma company. And, they were like, where do I go for? I’m like, no one is going to turn you down. if you’re looking for information. you can literally ping anybody and we’ll get on the phone with you.

[00:26:41] It’s really what is special? one last question for you, Louis, where do you go for inspiration?

[00:26:46] Luis Angel-Lalanne: Ah, so I think I’ll answer that two ways. One is for CX and this is going to sound generic. just like the experiences around us, I always tell my team like, Like, let’s be good consumers of all the surveys you get and all the experiences you get and think critically about them, you know?

[00:27:01] Cause a lot of times, so you’re gonna have great ones. And then, some of the things, some of my favorite things that we’ve rolled out at Amex are ideas we’ve picked up from others and other surveys and other industries that we just thought where it was neat and let’s try it at Amex. So I think the first one is just being a good inquisitive, consumer of experiences.

[00:27:20] Helps create energy and excitement, for me. And then the other is I’ll take a different approach for the second part of the Sanford. That’s just kind of music. I love listening to music and one of the positives of having been working from home so long as, I can turn the, turn the music on, turn it on loud, and get my energy depending on the mood I need and what I need to get going.

[00:27:39] and so that always, that always helps it’s some classic rock or some, alt rock or, anything in between. To help, help get me move in. When I, when I get a little stuck with something. So. That’s probably the other way. I’d

[00:27:50] Bill Staikos: answer this. I love it. So I, we’re, we’re probably the same age kind of just looking at you.

[00:27:55] so there were probably, have similar kind of bands that we listened to on a regular basis. Louis, this has been a really fun conversation, a lot of learning. Thanks so much for coming on the show. It’s wonderful to have you on be customer led and, I’m excited, as a customer and as someone who just loves the, the, the American fish brand, and I’m excited for your successes and continue to see them.

[00:28:14] Bill Staikos: So thanks for coming.

[00:28:15] Luis Angel-Lalanne: No. Thanks for having me. It’s been really fun. Yeah.

[00:28:18] Bill Staikos: Awesome. All right, everybody. Great show this week, we’re out. Talk to you sooner for

[00:28:22] Luis Angel-Lalanne: listening to be customer led with bill staikos. We are grateful to our audience for the gift of their time. Be sure to visit us@becustomerled.com for more episodes.

[00:28:35] Leave us feedback on how we’re doing or tell us what you want to hear more about until next time we’re out.